Tournament Fishing Participation - How do you decide?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Josh Potter on January 23, 2016 at 2:05pm

I didn't get the sense that anybody was mean spirited either. The bottom line is we need more participants...new participants. Unfortunately, as Ben laid out already, barrier to entry in this sport is really high.

When young guys win tournaments.....they are typically winning them out of someone else's boat.

Permalink Reply by Ben Hanes on January 23, 2016 at 3:15pm

I am sorry if I came off offensive to anyone.

Most of the top guys I know somewhat.  I think they are all pretty cool, I have no issues with anyone.  I know they all work their tail-ends off, and I know they are very talented...I just wanted to be very brutally honest, in hopes some of these circuits grow.  Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, or put anyone down. 

Don, I think you're correct.  The BBT has capitalized on the level playing field aspect.  This might be a turning point for the tournament circuits in Washington state if NWB and ABA, or whatever circuit, doesn't respond appropriately....I saw this coming 4 or 5 years ago, though, and spoke up a little then but it didn't do any good. 

I myself find catching the biggest fish to be extremely random, and I'm not a great gambler, so I don't think I will fish the BBT circuit.  But I know it appeals to a lot of guys who are tired of the uneven playing field.

Here's something to consider: look at Spokane Bass Club.  That little club is drawing 40 boats every tournament! What are they doing?  Boater/non-boater draw, with small entry fees and a little payout.  They're getting NEW GUYS in, just like Josh Potter said....I have said it so many times, that every other state in the country where bass fishing is big has Pro-Ams, but apparently up here, for some odd reason, that just isn't possible...I can tell you this much:  I have fished enough to know there aren't many "hidden spots" out there.  It's about timing, an angler's decision making ability, and their ability to CATCH BIG FISH.  The top guys have figured out how to execute those three things amazingly well.  That's why some dumbo (and unfortunately that dumbo has been me at times) can roll up on "their" spot, and it doesn't matter, they will go right in behind them and catch BIGGER FISH.  My point is, we all shouldn't be so defensive about "spots."  It's pretty obvious "spots" are NOT what it takes to consistently win, or even do well.

Permalink Reply by Ben Hanes on January 23, 2016 at 3:37pm

Sorry, correction, 40 anglers, which is still bigger than most ABA tournaments.  I also am seeing a growth-trend in the BASS Fed and TBF.

Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on January 23, 2016 at 3:59pm

Ben,

I could not agree more. Thanks for all your posts. They took the thread for a few twists and turns, but very constructive overall.

Im going to try to support BBT this year if it doesnt interfere with my prefish for 5 fish tournaments that I prefer. However, the idea that BBT is a "level playing field" is, in my mind, very mis-leading.

Tag won last year. The year before Doucet and Eidsen cashed half the available checks. Percifield/k. Ratchford won it that year. Those guys always do well at Potholes. Over time you'll see patterns emerge. They already have. The top 20% will cash the checks. It wont be any different. The 80/20 rule is everywhere. The rules slightly adjust who the 20 is.

For the record... I agree with Don. There shouldnt be any butt hurt-ness. i think Dana is wrong. I think that 8 pages of ideas, opinions and generally respectfull discourse would make the trail blazers proud that we aren't willing to be indifferent. Indifference and apathy are the anti-thesis of passion.

Don has me pegged to be sure. I love conjecture. My fingers are crossed that "no off limits are experimented with, as it does have merrits, and certainly helps me. I've gone on record as supporting this in debates about wounded warrior tournaments on Sammamish in the past.

If you really want change, I think you have to organize a diverse, yet unified focus group of anglers who represent the PNW. I just dont know how anyone has time for such heavy lifting without compensation. Ultimately they'd be responsible for recruiting new anglers to all entities (club/fed/circuits), seeking circuit sponsorships via networks, promotion through multi media, and influencing and mediating tourney directors regarding scheduling, rules, and format. If there isnt one really loud voice, then its just white noise.

Permalink Reply by Ben Hanes on January 23, 2016 at 7:49pm

Snake,

Those are some pretty good observations I hadn't noticed..  Tag is a big fish stud...Isn't that crazy!?  To say we all don't have gifts in certain areas, it's just clear as day we do, to me anyway.....Our gifts are so specialized that there's guys out there who can literally catch the BIGGEST FISH on a consistent basis, out of a huge field.  I think it's amazing!

As far as a level playing field goes, in a Pro-Am circuit, you are still going to have the issue of the top Pro's staying at the top, but they'll be competing more against other pro's so the differences probably won't be as obvious as they are now.  The only difference is the top Am's, rather than staying in Am, will most likely move up to the Pro division at some point, and performance of Am's sometimes will be out of their own control, because it will be based on boat draw to a certain extent.  Maybe not, but it's generally what I have seen.  There's a lot of checks and balances in place to keep a revolving, learning sport growing in the pro-am format.

Alright.  I'm going to go kick rocks like some other guys and shut up for a while.  I would still like to hear Steiner's view, though, at some point.

Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on January 23, 2016 at 7:56pm

Here are my thoughts:

1. None of us started out day one as a full blown tournament angler. We all started fishing because we had FUN, we enjoyed our time while on the water and found fishing to be a great release from life's complications. Maybe we all need to think about why we fish.

2. Why has a tournament like the Potholes Open existed for so many years? There's no real money to be won. It pretty much cost the same to fish as other tournaments. Yet every year it draws 100+ boats and usually fills up in about a week. They allow a Friday pre fish and you would think that the fish are being throttled the day before the event. Yet almost every year the weights and creel numbers are exceptional. So again, why do the fishermen continue to show up year after year to participate? They show up because it's fun and people feel like they get their monies worth. The people are great and many friendships have been made over the years.

3. Tournament fishing is an addictive sport. It should never come at the cost of your family, friends, job or financial stability. Fishing tournaments at the higher level is very expensive.... PERIOD.

4. I have fished against some extremely talented anglers that none of you have ever heard of right here at home. They chose family, friends, jobs and financial stability over their egos. If they would have chose to stay fishing tournaments, we would be adding their names to the list of the states best. These are the guy's that I respect and call friends.

5. I have been making the 500-600 mile round trip (except LK. Washington) for 30 years, to fish the majority of the scheduled major tournaments. There is not one body of water that I compete on that I can call my "home" water. I have chose to do this to compete in the sport I enjoy. I'm not concerned about someone's home court advantage. I'm not fishing against them, I'm fishing against mother nature and those magnificent creatures that stretch our line. Yes, I have been able to gain a lifetime of knowledge fishing the big three Potholes, Banks and the Tri Cities. However, this has been an ongoing project for thirty years.

6. I'm against wide open no off limits pre fishing. Yes it puts a large percentage of the field at a disadvantage. However, I would like to see the Friday before the event opened up for pre fishing to help reduce cost and possibly open the door for more participation.

7. I have been fortunate, fishing has rewarded me with more great memories than I deserve. It did not come easy and there is no substitute for hard work, commitment and time on the water. Fishing is mental and a whole lot of luck. Trust me, in the early years I had no money, knowledge, experience nor top of the line equipment. I've had my butt handed to me more times than I've had success, yet I keep showing up as much as I can. Why? This is a big part of my life, my enjoyment and because of all the great friendships that I have made.

8. Saturation: Yes, there are way to many tournaments for the limited bodies of water we have to fish and the number of fishermen. We have done a great job of dividing our angler base.

9 Participation: Yes the numbers are down for many reasons, just look at the US economy. I have spoke to quite a few past participants and money is tight, I can fully understand their situation. The only way to grow an organization is through increased participation. I hope that those that are in a better situation will show up and participate.

10. Tournament Organizations & Directors: Check your ego at the gate and start listening to the participants that allow you to exist. I've had private discussions with most of you, you are still not listening to the fishermen. Yes it is your circuit, you own it and you have the right to run it the way you want. An empty field is nothing more than an empty field.

11. Respect: This is not a birth right, you need to earn it. Tournament fishing has changed dramatically in a very short time. I personally feel that greed has over taken respect in our sport. Some teams are pulling some pretty dumb ass stuff in the name of competition. This is one of the reasons that my participation and enjoyment has declined. A few years ago if a team was leading or doing well in a tournament after day one, you would grace the spot to them if you are not in the running. Now I see teams with no chance in HELL of winning, racing down the lake on day two to "cork" the leaders spot. Respect is als9o the one thing that I did not see mentioned in all of the previous post.

McBroom,

Like your humor and your fishing ability. However I would rather cut off both arms and my left nut before giving Hillary my support. 

Snake,

You appear to be an intelligent man with a fair amount of education. Your post are humorous and well written. However, the pioneers of our sport would find you just as obnoxious as I do. You would never be invited into the inner circle before you pay your dues. You are what we call a "wantabe". I take no offense to your insults, frankly I don't care what you think. I'm more interested to see if you will man up and sit at the grown ups table.

    

Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on January 24, 2016 at 10:08am

Dana,

I'm glad you posted some substance finally, instead of taking lazy shots. I agree that directors still arent listening fully, based on my own recent private conversations.

I agree to a T with your off limits philosophy.

To your point about respect... I think it is possible that your generation failed to communicate the "unwritten rules". I'm as old school as it gets in that regard. I called Ron "6th day" Hobbs, before my first event and pro-actively asked him about etiquette in relation to other boaters. But we didnt discuss 2 day events. I dont see you blazing a trail to speak at clubs regarding etiquette or anyone else from your age class that you have divisively positioned as superior to the snot nosed kids. When big bass pots are available, and 30lb bags arent impossible on some waters... Your etiquette may not be as common sense as you position it to be. In my first ever tournament, I was down by 11lbs entering day 2. I ended up in 3rd, only 1.5 lbs from winning. Yes, that was a club event, but guys can crash, while others can go big.

What I find disturbing is your calling a new angler to tournaments a "wantabe", right smack dab in the middle of an 8 page thread outlining the many barriers to enter the sport. Do you not recognize the lunacy in that? What a catastrophic mistake on your part. You cant talk about earning respect, and put that shit out there.

I've fished club, federation, aba, nwbass, and bbt. Ive cashed checks in over 60% of the aba/nwbass i've fished. I've help spearhead positive pr for wafish and the bass community, and generated cash for anglers in need. I own the title on my ranger, and my tundra's title is on a 13 month journey toward my filing cabinet. I have a 6 figure income as well as a cash flow positive investment property. I dont need an invite to any inner circle jerk. My game is good enough to compete. I have the money to compete. I choose not to go all-in for many of the reasons stated, and for several that have been suprisingly missed.

Everyone talks about competing against Don hogue, Hobbs, Steiner, Taylor Smith, Kromm, carpenter, ratchford etc...

Those guys are pros. But the real discrepancy is when their partners name and skill and resources enter the equation. When we talk about talent gaps in aba/nwbass... We dont even recognize that we are discussing half the equation most of the time. Well fitting partners dont grow on trees, and at the total cost per tournament, i'm not willing to compromise. So I pick and choose as partner availability presents itself.

If thats the definition of wantabe, then so be it. I'll change my name to validate your wisdom.

Permalink Reply by Don Hogue on January 24, 2016 at 12:18pm

I think a little perspective is in order.  Since this has devolved into a name-dropping exercise (in one case, literally), let me offer a dose of reality. As one of the names that has been mentioned as a "pro", it strikes me as silly.  I am not a pro.  None of us are pros.  We don't have sponsors.  We pay mortgages and truck and boat payments like the rest. We stress over being able to afford to fish tournaments and all that goes with it.  We are in awe of others abilities to catch fish when we can't.  We struggle in events or just out fishing.  My last tournament last year at Banks, I didn't catch a fish all day long.  

My first tournament by myself, I went in after 2 hours of fishing because the water was so rough (Boardman) and I was afraid I wasn't going to keep my tri-hulled Ranger afloat.  I remember holding onto the idea that Forrest Wood still floating in the cut up Ranger was real.  I was sure the parking lot would be empty as everyone would call it a day.  All the trucks/trailers were still there.  I dumped the fish I had and went home with my tail between my legs, too afraid to go back out in it, too ashamed to hang out in the parking lot and have to explain what the problem was.  

When I was 23 or 24, I went to an outdoor show and asked the guys at a bass club booth how I could join.  They told me I couldn't.  Their club only existed to field a team large enough to compete in the Federation events.  Somebody would "have to die" for me to get in.  If I wasn't connected as it was to others who were involved in tournament fishing (grandfather, father) that might have been the end to my tournament fishing aspirations.  

At the BASS Federation National Championship on the Harris Chain in Florida, I remember sitting in the dark by myself in the boat waiting for blast off on day 1.  I had spent the past 3 days prefishing along with everybody else.  I listened on bus rides back to the hotel and elevator rides back to my room about everybody's success during practice.  I had caught 2 fish in 3 days.  Both within 30 yrds and 10 minutes of each other.  I listened to the rest of the field talk about their prefishing before the official practice...hiring guides, past experiences on the lake, etc.  Sitting there in that boat that morning, I felt so out of place, like I didn't belong.  I told myself to try and get through the next 3 days of competition.  Bring in at least one fish.  I told myself that afterwards I would give up tournament fishing.  These guys were just too good for me. What's the point?  Who did I think I was?  After day two, I was in the lead.  Never have I thought something was so incredible.  I ended up in 2nd place, missing an invite to the Elites and a $50,000 boat/motor package by 1-2 lbs.  I only brought in 3 fish that final day.  Two 12" fish away.  I did get a birth to the Classic, but part of me felt like I blew my chance.  I did well because I stumbled into a group of fish that were doing something that all the experts latter told me they don't do on that lake in the fall.  I was the only one fishing for those fish. Those are how the circumstances can impact all of this.  

My partners have carried me many times.  I've watched Ryan single handily turn a 10lb limit at 1pm on day two of an ABA championship into 22 lbs and the win.  I'm a product of an obsessive personality about understanding bass and a product of my circumstances.  My knowledge and "expertise" has been built off the backs of others whether they know it or not or whether I even know who they are or not. My grandfather and father started me on all of this and that's an advantage that I have had that most haven't.  I've been around bass clubs, bass tournaments, Bass Master magazine, Bass Pro catalogs, boats boats, old guys talking bass fishing and playing with tackle and casting in the back yard since I was born.  I watched the first flashers and trolling motors go on boats. I remember them wearing the jumpsuits/coverall with patches sewn on.  So, any of you who think that there are some mystical, magical powers that us "pros" have is just wrong.  Ideas of an elite angler class are being spread among others until there is this sense that you/they don't belong.  That is the biggest thing killing participation.  Plenty of people bass fish.  Many don't participate because of these misconceptions or way they are treated by the old guard.  

If some of these other so called "pros" told you about their stories, you'd see things a little differently.    

Just like my experience at that bass club booth years ago, those of us who have "eaten at the adults table" have done a terrible job of welcoming others in.  Treating the sport as if it's a branch of the Illuminati with secrets that only a select few can have.  Then turning around and complaining about the turnouts.

So after some serious thought, I don't blame the tournament operators, bass boat dealers, schedule makers,rules, oil companies or the industry rep who failed to see my brilliance and sponsor me.  As hard as it is to say, I think the answer lies in the mirror.  I can't fault anyone for having apprehensions about jumping in, because that was me just a few years ago and I had every advantage/reason in the world to not feel that way.  If we want things to change, those of us at the grown-ups table need to remember our roots and be real about what the sport needs to encourage participation if that's where we see the issue.    

Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on January 24, 2016 at 4:50pm

Trust me Don, I remember my roots and I have never forgotten where I came from! I also remember all of the "old timers" that helped me advance in this sport. I remember how a young "wantabe" newcomer like myself earned their respect so they would take me in and help mentor me. For that, I'm forever grateful.  

"If we want things to change, those of us at the grown-ups table need to remember our roots and be real about what the sport needs to encourage participation if that's where we see the issue".    

Permalink Reply by Jordan Doucet on January 28, 2016 at 8:33am

Working on a survey now based on some of the info gathered here. Anyone feel free to message me with things you would like to see on it. I'd like to make it as comprehensive as possible. 

Jake Boomer said:

Steiner is right.  Forum style conversations can be tough on friends who all have the same general passion.  That's why I deleted my last post, as this isn't going anywhere.

 

Couple years ago, Dana, Stiles and I tried to setup a meeting in Moses Lake with a bunch of NWBass anglers.  The idea was to help shape the circuit to something that worked for Stiles (businessman), and the anglers who are passionate about the sport.  The meeting never worked out due to scheduling, but Stiles was still able to gather opinions and make changes.  The end result was a 10-15% gain in participation and contingency money at every event.  The year wasn't without issues, but it was a definite improvement. 

 

Maybe as a group, we could have Jordan assemble some type of online questionnaire which we could present to each tournament director.  I believe they want the same things we do, participation and less bitching.  From there, we can decide who's getting it right by showing up.

 

Ben, I apologize for my direct approach to your comments about the "Professional" group.  I took your approach as an attack on something I feel completely opposite about.  I think the majority of the names listed, plus 100 more guys, care deeply about this sport, and don't want to be victimized for their time and effort.  The sport will never be perfect, but let's face it, upto 10 times a year, guys are fishing for a $5-20k prize.  There's bound to be some tension.  Yet not something we haven't overcome in the past. 

 

The online survey might be a lot of work, but I'd be willing help compensate Jordan for this time.  Couple ideas we could add to the list: 

 

1.)  Friday Prefishing - completely open prefishing

2.)  Championship Prizes - Boat versus Cash versus Free Obamacare

3.)  Rookie of the Year Awards

4.)  .....

 

Or we could continue to bitch about each other's opinions in a circle, dividing the group that supposed to ultimately decide what tournament fishing should be like in this state. 

 

By the way, I know you guys are reading this...  So thanks to Angie, Jeff and Russ. 

 

In the words of the Great Debater, Jake the Snake.  Kick Rocks (politely).  I have to go build rods.

Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on January 28, 2016 at 5:45pm

Deuce,

Looking forward to the survey. I'm extremely interested to hear what the fishermen have to say, except one.

Jordan Doucet said:

Working on a survey now based on some of the info gathered here. Anyone feel free to message me with things you would like to see on it. I'd like to make it as comprehensive as possible. 

Jake Boomer said:

Steiner is right.  Forum style conversations can be tough on friends who all have the same general passion.  That's why I deleted my last post, as this isn't going anywhere.

 

Couple years ago, Dana, Stiles and I tried to setup a meeting in Moses Lake with a bunch of NWBass anglers.  The idea was to help shape the circuit to something that worked for Stiles (businessman), and the anglers who are passionate about the sport.  The meeting never worked out due to scheduling, but Stiles was still able to gather opinions and make changes.  The end result was a 10-15% gain in participation and contingency money at every event.  The year wasn't without issues, but it was a definite improvement. 

 

Maybe as a group, we could have Jordan assemble some type of online questionnaire which we could present to each tournament director.  I believe they want the same things we do, participation and less bitching.  From there, we can decide who's getting it right by showing up.

 

Ben, I apologize for my direct approach to your comments about the "Professional" group.  I took your approach as an attack on something I feel completely opposite about.  I think the majority of the names listed, plus 100 more guys, care deeply about this sport, and don't want to be victimized for their time and effort.  The sport will never be perfect, but let's face it, upto 10 times a year, guys are fishing for a $5-20k prize.  There's bound to be some tension.  Yet not something we haven't overcome in the past. 

 

The online survey might be a lot of work, but I'd be willing help compensate Jordan for this time.  Couple ideas we could add to the list: 

 

1.)  Friday Prefishing - completely open prefishing

2.)  Championship Prizes - Boat versus Cash versus Free Obamacare

3.)  Rookie of the Year Awards

4.)  .....

 

Or we could continue to bitch about each other's opinions in a circle, dividing the group that supposed to ultimately decide what tournament fishing should be like in this state. 

 

By the way, I know you guys are reading this...  So thanks to Angie, Jeff and Russ. 

 

In the words of the Great Debater, Jake the Snake.  Kick Rocks (politely).  I have to go build rods.

Permalink Reply by Ben Hanes on January 29, 2016 at 9:24am

McBroom,

I am the minority, and I have kind of limited myself to BASS, clubs, and a select tournament or two these days, but here are my answers to your questions:

-I think Friday pre-fishing is a good start.  I would prefer Thursday and Friday, like some big Pro-Am circuits do, but Friday is better than nothing.

-I think most guys would prefer cash.  The championship winners almost always end up selling their boat, or boat certificate, and generally for much less than what the boat retails at....However, that would be a tough one for the dealers to accomplish because cash is their bottom line; they don't spend a lot of money on inventory and manufacturer products.  In other words, I would guess dealers get an extremely good deal on the prize boat from the manufacturer.

-I don't think teams should be forced to separate.  There is a place for team tournaments, and it's a pain in the rear finding a fishing partner.  It's about as bad as finding a freakin' wife, and your fishing partner oftentimes becomes just about as close to you as your wife!!!  LOL that sounds terrible! 

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