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The discussion on what it means to be the "best" made me think about this whole experience thing.  I think I was at my best on Potholes the first year or two I fished it.  It seems like I get worse with each year of added experience there.  In fact my best days there are usually with a lure I have never used before, on a section of the lake I have never fished.  Hardly the benefit of any experience.  That's just one example. 

Now I don't discount time on the water as being important or even the most important thing in becoming a better fisherman.  But I've watched the very best, with the most experience on any given body of water struggle there - not just for a day or two, but for whole seasons or for the last 5 years..  Did they get worse?  If experience is the key, why aren't those who have been fishing the longest dominating?  How does somebody who has been fishing only a few years, do well on bodies of water they don't have much experience on?  I've seen it here on the Columbia, at Banks Lake, Potholes, Moses Lake, Oregon,  Florida and Alabama.

Of course, I expect some of you to say that some people just get stuck in their ways and that is where experience hurts them.  But isn't that the whole point of time on the water, to learn those ways?  Are we supposed to learn stuff and then at some magical point dissregard it? 

 

I have my theories, but I'll hold off and poke holes in some of yours first.

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Replies to This Discussion

Ok, Don, I'll play...I agree that "experience" does not mean anything by itself other than that someone has spent a lot of time on the water. The difference between an experienced excellent angler, and an experienced average angler is between the ears of the angler.

Some people have the mentality, disposition, and resources to take life's experiences and use them to achieve excellence; others never seem to learn from their experiences, or lack the strength or resources to develop their experiences. Our jails are filled with people who have not learned from their experiences, so they prove your point that experience doesn't in itself equate to excellence.

On the other hand, if a person is adept at understanding how to learn from their experience and leverage that experience, then the experience factor can be huge.

I'm sure you have seen with your students that some have a thirst for knowledge, and those students are often the best. But even that thirst for knowledge doesn't make them the best student if they don't have other qualities and/or resources to leverage that knowledge. You also have students who have no intention of learning; one thing is for sure, those students will NOT be competitive compared to the students with motivation. Sure, one or two will stumble into greatness anyway, but you get the idea.

So, experience and versatility (see how I worked that in!) are both tools that in the hands of the right person will allow them to be the best in their field when compared to those without those same tools and all other things being equal.

To further respond to your point about why anglers with the most experience may not achieve further greatness with further experience, I would say this is one reason I consider competitive bass angling to be a sport. I'll tell you from my own situation that some of my physical skills have degraded with my age. I used to be a stud with eagle eyesight that Ron couldn't match. I used to be able to remember every spot I think I may have had a bite, and pitch far under a dock before the other guy in the boat even got out of his boat seat. Now I'm the old fat guy, but have "more experience".

I could simply give up learning, fall into the trap of using the same old lures and fish the same old spots, and my results would mirror your Potholes scenario. Instead I choose to focus on my strengths and develop strength in other areas to compensate for my lack of physical studliness. I lean on my experience (and my fishing logs) to analyze my past and help remember, so that I can hone my decision-making skills. I'm at that stage in life when I understand the old saying that "Youth is wasted on the Young".

I'm still in it to win. I can't do anything about my age, but I can about my weight and fitness, and I have turned that corner and will improve this during this season. I don't have the time to spend prefishing like many of the others (prefishing doesn't make you the best, it is just another tool that can pay big dividends or hurt you if you don't know how to take advantage of it). Heaven help you all if I decide to retire from my fulltime occupation and get out and prefish, ha ha.

Some with experience are not the best because their goals, and/or competitiveness have changed with age. Most competitive young anglers have something to prove, and that fuels their success. Some experienced anglers have already proven themselves, and probably aren't willing to take risks that youth feed on. They may become more sportsmanlike in their approach and yield to others on fishing spots or fishing information because they are motivated by different things. For example, how many guys over 50 do you see running around in the fastest boat with 300 hp motors, running and gunning? How many do you see pushing the envelope on the rules? Yes, I know that some do, but my point is that I bet as you age you will find that your motivations in life will be different than when you were younger.

Now, all of that rambling having been said, let me assure all of you that my desire to continually learn, and my motivation to be a better angler has not subsided; and I bet I have been fishing long before most of you, and will still be fishing with enthusiasm long after most of you!

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

ciao,
Marc
In my opinion its simple. The more you fish, the more patterns you piece together regardless of body of water.

If you spend a ton of time on the water, therefore piecing together many different patterns over the years....this is great. Unfortunately if you don't have the ability to retain those lessons or the willingness to trust and use them later...it is wasted time on the water and wasted lessons learned.

In order for time on the water to be an advantage.....you have to have a steel trap for a brain. Many people do not have this...therefore they fail to learn from previous success and previous failure and are doomed to make the same mistakes twice.

My memory is terrible...and I don't document my outtings. I know I make a ton of mistakes, and that is why a good fisherman will kick my butt his first time on the River despite the fact that I live on it.

Now there is another category of fisherman who spend countless hours on the water and they just don't have any god given talent. No killer instinct. None at all. Those people are rowing into the wind. I see this in hunting all the time. The guy who walks and walks...but just doesnt figure out when he needs to walk a little bit faster/quieter/slower in order to put the chukar/rooster/duck/deer/elk in the bag.

its only a few variables and details that seperate the bad from the good and the good from the great.
I like this analogy, makes sense.

Jake "The Snake" Anderson said:
Now there is another category of fisherman who spend countless hours on the water and they just don't have any god given talent. No killer instinct. None at all. Those people are rowing into the wind. I see this in hunting all the time. The guy who walks and walks...but just doesnt figure out when he needs to walk a little bit faster/quieter/slower in order to put the chukar/rooster/duck/deer/elk in the bag.

its only a few variables and details that seperate the bad from the good and the good from the great.
I like what Mark said about age. I believe it's my lifes fishing experience's that gives me the confidence to compete with anybody. I 've been addicted to fishing all my life with bass only the last 20. When I started bass fishing I felt like a kid again. I couldn't get enough and at 53 I still can't. I fish alone most of the time and I've never never felt more alive than when I'm out on the water. The thought of breaking down new water, to me is exciting. I'll be on a few new body's of water this season and I can't wait to go at it. Even though it's competition against other great anglers, in my head it's really about me and that fish I'm about to catch. My 2 cents
Another great thread.

I have often wondered this myself and my tourney partner and I have discussed it quite a bit over the winter. Going into last year, really only our second tourney season of tough competition, we felt we had learned enough on certain lakes to be a real threat. We then proceeded to do far worse than we had the previous year on a consistent basis. Our answer wether it is right or wrong remains to be seen is that we got too comfortable with the methods that worked one day the previous year and didn't adapt for the conditions in front of us at the time. I think a person has to continually evolve to stay on top, I have started documenting all of my outings and have been very suprised at what I have seen. I think it is easy to get stuck in a rut of such and such bait and or technique has worked well in the past so why try something else. I think a good example of this is that last year I went to a lake and unknown to me there was a tourney on it. I went to a bunch of water that wasn't being fished so I could stay out of everyone's way. I had one of the best days I had ever had on that lake and the guys in the tourney for the most part had a super tough time. Explain that!

There are of course guys who are far more accomplished that will hopefully throw in their two bits.

Marc, you just keep on working. We have a hard enough time with you as it is :)
This is one of my favorite quotes.
"Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment."
UnKnown

It would be a lot easier to make good judgment calls on the day of the tournament if everything in the environment stayed constant, all bass were created equal and did not have a brain. But if that was true we would call it gathering and not fishing.
I think that you have to ask the question. “Why is this not working now and how can I change it to make it work?” That is the big question that you have to have an open mind and use all your experience and knowledge to answer. The answers seem endless: water Temp., Depth change, water clarity, structure change (more or less weeds), weather change (wind, sun, clouds, Rain, pressure), pre-spawn, bedding, post spawn, reaction bit, feeding, prey availability, ect. If you get the right answer or combination of answers and use good judgment to make the change then you will catch more fish.
Nothing in bass fishing is constant and with more experience I tend to narrow down the options and not look at the whole picture like I did when I first fished the lake. Add the element of time in a tournament and the options narrow even more. I do not ask the question and keep pounding the same water with what worked in the past. It is usually on the ride home when I figure out what was different and what I should have done. Sometimes it is as simple as I was fishing in 20 to 25 foot of water, and today the fish I weighed were in 12 to 15 ft. At the time I did not put it together that the fish have fins and moved.
With Experience I tend to use it for location and bait selection. When really I need to use the experience to build confidence in my ability to read the conditions and use good judgment to pick the location and bait selection. Easier said than done for me but I will keep trying.
The bottom line for me is it is not how much experience you have but how you use that experience that counts. The more experience I have with a body of water the more time it takes to run out of options that have worked in the past. The tournament is over before I take time to read the conditions and use good judgment to make the needed adjustments. I have lots of experience but until I make better use of it you will not see my name in the top 20 in the ABA or anywhere else. I may never get there as I am getting old enough that I can hide my own Easter eggs and not find them all.
I don’t think that I am telling you anything that you don’t already know but you did get me to thinking. Great post.
Wow, great post and excellent replies. I agree with John; I have found that often my first trip to a new body of water is my "best" trip. I seem to catch my biggest fish and it feels almost effortless. I began to analyze exactly why this was happening. The consolidated version of the conclusion I came to was the following:

When I fish a new lake for the first time, I go in with very few preconceptions of where I think the fish should be. I study a map if applicable, read the current conditions, take a quick lap to get a visual of what the lake has to offer in terms of water clarity, structure, cover, vegetation etc., prioritize these areas in my mind and get to work. It is 100% instinct fishing.

However, on the following trip, regardless of how hard I tried to fish the moment and trust my instincts, I would often check areas or specific pieces of cover that had kicked out big fish during my initial trip. This isn't all bad, as re-checking these areas can pay dividends, but not at the expense of disregarding the current conditions. With the short windows of time I was often on the water, this certainly wasn't the most efficient use of my time.

In conclusion, I think "fishing history" is often an anglers biggest downfall, short and long term.

So many other of the key points have already been made.
Marc
Good points. You seem to be pointing towards some sort of intangible "X" factor that influences fishing success. That without "it" experience does not matter? I think that's a common theme with many of the responses so far and pretty much my point to begin with.
I wonder what you think that innate ability is - can it be described?

Marc Marcantonio said:
Ok, Don, I'll play...I agree that "experience" does not mean anything by itself other than that someone has spent a lot of time on the water. The difference between an experienced excellent angler, and an experienced average angler is between the ears of the angler.

Some people have the mentality, disposition, and resources to take life's experiences and use them to achieve excellence; others never seem to learn from their experiences, or lack the strength or resources to develop their experiences. Our jails are filled with people who have not learned from their experiences, so they prove your point that experience doesn't in itself equate to excellence.

On the other hand, if a person is adept at understanding how to learn from their experience and leverage that experience, then the experience factor can be huge.

I'm sure you have seen with your students that some have a thirst for knowledge, and those students are often the best. But even that thirst for knowledge doesn't make them the best student if they don't have other qualities and/or resources to leverage that knowledge. You also have students who have no intention of learning; one thing is for sure, those students will NOT be competitive compared to the students with motivation. Sure, one or two will stumble into greatness anyway, but you get the idea.

So, experience and versatility (see how I worked that in!) are both tools that in the hands of the right person will allow them to be the best in their field when compared to those without those same tools and all other things being equal.

To further respond to your point about why anglers with the most experience may not achieve further greatness with further experience, I would say this is one reason I consider competitive bass angling to be a sport. I'll tell you from my own situation that some of my physical skills have degraded with my age. I used to be a stud with eagle eyesight that Ron couldn't match. I used to be able to remember every spot I think I may have had a bite, and pitch far under a dock before the other guy in the boat even got out of his boat seat. Now I'm the old fat guy, but have "more experience".

I could simply give up learning, fall into the trap of using the same old lures and fish the same old spots, and my results would mirror your Potholes scenario. Instead I choose to focus on my strengths and develop strength in other areas to compensate for my lack of physical studliness. I lean on my experience (and my fishing logs) to analyze my past and help remember, so that I can hone my decision-making skills. I'm at that stage in life when I understand the old saying that "Youth is wasted on the Young".

I'm still in it to win. I can't do anything about my age, but I can about my weight and fitness, and I have turned that corner and will improve this during this season. I don't have the time to spend prefishing like many of the others (prefishing doesn't make you the best, it is just another tool that can pay big dividends or hurt you if you don't know how to take advantage of it). Heaven help you all if I decide to retire from my fulltime occupation and get out and prefish, ha ha.

Some with experience are not the best because their goals, and/or competitiveness have changed with age. Most competitive young anglers have something to prove, and that fuels their success. Some experienced anglers have already proven themselves, and probably aren't willing to take risks that youth feed on. They may become more sportsmanlike in their approach and yield to others on fishing spots or fishing information because they are motivated by different things. For example, how many guys over 50 do you see running around in the fastest boat with 300 hp motors, running and gunning? How many do you see pushing the envelope on the rules? Yes, I know that some do, but my point is that I bet as you age you will find that your motivations in life will be different than when you were younger.

Now, all of that rambling having been said, let me assure all of you that my desire to continually learn, and my motivation to be a better angler has not subsided; and I bet I have been fishing long before most of you, and will still be fishing with enthusiasm long after most of you!

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

ciao,
Marc
John,
Your reply makes me think of GPS waypoints and how despite the obvious advantages of GPS, I have only been burned by running waypoints. But on its face, waypoints are supposed to be shortcuts for our experiences, built into a map so we never lose them and can always recreate the event. It just rarely works that way for me.

John G said:
This is something I too have had happen to me I go to lake first time & slay them then struggle every time after. Took me a few years to work it out. What I found was the first time I go to a lake I am analyzing the conditions the depths ECT lot of times I get this feeling I can not explain that makes me take a lure out or I just know there are bass in a spot call it hunter instinct or what ever you want. The next time I would go to the lake I would fish the same spots regardless of any conditions & my senses would be shut off more or less I would go into auto pilot mode. I was hitting spots I caught before & when I did not get a bite first cast I would just move to the next one. Conclusion don't go into autopilot mode like you do at your job Don't let the past dictate your future. Try to clear your mind of distractions I know when I am out there & I have 10 things going on at home my catch rate falls. I fail at tournaments because I have fished so few & there are so many distractions. I could go on but I don't want to be too long winded I hope that helps some. Trust me I am no guru but I do know what jams me up and application is another story.
Jake,
You start out making it simple and then spend the rest of your thread qualifying it. At the end, I'm left thinking that you too believe that experience is meaningless unless a person has some sort of intagible set of abilities - again the "X" factor.

Jake "The Snake" Anderson said:
In my opinion its simple. The more you fish, the more patterns you piece together regardless of body of water.

If you spend a ton of time on the water, therefore piecing together many different patterns over the years....this is great. Unfortunately if you don't have the ability to retain those lessons or the willingness to trust and use them later...it is wasted time on the water and wasted lessons learned.

In order for time on the water to be an advantage.....you have to have a steel trap for a brain. Many people do not have this...therefore they fail to learn from previous success and previous failure and are doomed to make the same mistakes twice.

My memory is terrible...and I don't document my outtings. I know I make a ton of mistakes, and that is why a good fisherman will kick my butt his first time on the River despite the fact that I live on it.

Now there is another category of fisherman who spend countless hours on the water and they just don't have any god given talent. No killer instinct. None at all. Those people are rowing into the wind. I see this in hunting all the time. The guy who walks and walks...but just doesnt figure out when he needs to walk a little bit faster/quieter/slower in order to put the chukar/rooster/duck/deer/elk in the bag.

its only a few variables and details that seperate the bad from the good and the good from the great.
Tag,
Yep, and to me "experience" and "fishing history" often become one and the same out on the water. Does it have to be that way or should it be that way - probably not, but that's the reality of it.
I think I've come to some of the same conclusions as you...but it frustrates me. And at the same time, I keep coming back for more.

Tag Watson said:
Wow, great post and excellent replies. I agree with John; I have found that often my first trip to a new body of water is my "best" trip. I seem to catch my biggest fish and it feels almost effortless. I began to analyze exactly why this was happening. The consolidated version of the conclusion I came to was the following:

When I fish a new lake for the first time, I go in with very few preconceptions of where I think the fish should be. I study a map if applicable, read the current conditions, take a quick lap to get a visual of what the lake has to offer in terms of water clarity, structure, cover, vegetation etc., prioritize these areas in my mind and get to work. It is 100% instinct fishing.

However, on the following trip, regardless of how hard I tried to fish the moment and trust my instincts, I would often check areas or specific pieces of cover that had kicked out big fish during my initial trip. This isn't all bad, as re-checking these areas can pay dividends, but not at the expense of disregarding the current conditions. With the short windows of time I was often on the water, this certainly wasn't the most efficient use of my time.

In conclusion, I think "fishing history" is often an anglers biggest downfall, short and long term.

So many other of the key points have already been made.
Don, it is obvious you are a great teacher just as you are a great fisherman. It would be impossible for me to capture exactly what the intangible "X" factor is, but like you, I do believe it exists and is a quality of "best" that experience does not define.

Some might describe it as "passion" or "instinct" or "intuition" or "decision-making skills" or even "genius" or superb "athletic ability" or simply "greatness". Others might even think it is a disease (ask any spouse) or "Obsessive Compulsive Disorder."

All I can say is that I'm addicted to improvement; I am all about learning from every single experience. I utilize all the tools available to find any edge I can, and when I lose one skill I try to compensate for it with two or three others. I strive for an "A+" grade so that I don't fall short of "A Grade."

After every fishing trip I document my thoughts; especially reviewing in my mind what I learned, and what I didn't learn, and what I should have done differently, and what I did right. I document my thoughts about what I should remember or try the next time. This forces me to analyze my experience, and it reminds me how the environment and my quarry are always changing, and that I have to adjust. It reminds me to try something different the next trip. My logs prevent me from falling into predictable patterns because that is how I use my logs. Many focus on the patterns that develop from their experience, i.e. they look for commonality to help make future predictions. I do this as well, but more importantly to me after 37 years of successful tournament fishing seasons, I focus more on the differences I have documented from my experience.

The inevitable question that forms when focusing on the differences is "WHY?" Why were the bass biting this lure; or why were they in this weedbed, or why did they move here, or suspend under these conditions; why, why, why?

Maybe that is my "X Factor", the question "Why?" It keeps my mind young and keeps me energized and passionate about improving and paying attention to details.

Any top athlete gets to be the best on more than natural or physical talent. Sure you have to have it, but it takes more to stay at the top consistently.

ciao,
Marc





Don Hogue said:
Marc
Good points. You seem to be pointing towards some sort of intangible "X" factor that influences fishing success. That without "it" experience does not matter? I think that's a common theme with many of the responses so far and pretty much my point to begin with.
I wonder what you think that innate ability is - can it be described?

Marc Marcantonio said:
Ok, Don, I'll play...I agree that "experience" does not mean anything by itself other than that someone has spent a lot of time on the water. The difference between an experienced excellent angler, and an experienced average angler is between the ears of the angler.

Some people have the mentality, disposition, and resources to take life's experiences and use them to achieve excellence; others never seem to learn from their experiences, or lack the strength or resources to develop their experiences. Our jails are filled with people who have not learned from their experiences, so they prove your point that experience doesn't in itself equate to excellence.

On the other hand, if a person is adept at understanding how to learn from their experience and leverage that experience, then the experience factor can be huge.

I'm sure you have seen with your students that some have a thirst for knowledge, and those students are often the best. But even that thirst for knowledge doesn't make them the best student if they don't have other qualities and/or resources to leverage that knowledge. You also have students who have no intention of learning; one thing is for sure, those students will NOT be competitive compared to the students with motivation. Sure, one or two will stumble into greatness anyway, but you get the idea.

So, experience and versatility (see how I worked that in!) are both tools that in the hands of the right person will allow them to be the best in their field when compared to those without those same tools and all other things being equal.

To further respond to your point about why anglers with the most experience may not achieve further greatness with further experience, I would say this is one reason I consider competitive bass angling to be a sport. I'll tell you from my own situation that some of my physical skills have degraded with my age. I used to be a stud with eagle eyesight that Ron couldn't match. I used to be able to remember every spot I think I may have had a bite, and pitch far under a dock before the other guy in the boat even got out of his boat seat. Now I'm the old fat guy, but have "more experience".

I could simply give up learning, fall into the trap of using the same old lures and fish the same old spots, and my results would mirror your Potholes scenario. Instead I choose to focus on my strengths and develop strength in other areas to compensate for my lack of physical studliness. I lean on my experience (and my fishing logs) to analyze my past and help remember, so that I can hone my decision-making skills. I'm at that stage in life when I understand the old saying that "Youth is wasted on the Young".

I'm still in it to win. I can't do anything about my age, but I can about my weight and fitness, and I have turned that corner and will improve this during this season. I don't have the time to spend prefishing like many of the others (prefishing doesn't make you the best, it is just another tool that can pay big dividends or hurt you if you don't know how to take advantage of it). Heaven help you all if I decide to retire from my fulltime occupation and get out and prefish, ha ha.

Some with experience are not the best because their goals, and/or competitiveness have changed with age. Most competitive young anglers have something to prove, and that fuels their success. Some experienced anglers have already proven themselves, and probably aren't willing to take risks that youth feed on. They may become more sportsmanlike in their approach and yield to others on fishing spots or fishing information because they are motivated by different things. For example, how many guys over 50 do you see running around in the fastest boat with 300 hp motors, running and gunning? How many do you see pushing the envelope on the rules? Yes, I know that some do, but my point is that I bet as you age you will find that your motivations in life will be different than when you were younger.

Now, all of that rambling having been said, let me assure all of you that my desire to continually learn, and my motivation to be a better angler has not subsided; and I bet I have been fishing long before most of you, and will still be fishing with enthusiasm long after most of you!

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

ciao,
Marc

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