Disgusting: Lifting bass limits on the Columbia River!!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on March 14, 2016 at 2:39pm

I just got off the phone with Larry Phillips from wdfw. He was just at the bassmaster classic and evidently had his hands full fielding questions regarding OR, and WA legislation against warm water fish.

Very nice guy. He gets it. He fishes for Bass, as well as Anadramous fish as many of us do. To make a long story short, I spoke about my concerns about making decisions with no science. He admitted that they have no strong data about predation of smolt themselves, nor do they understand the predation by bass on other non-native predators of smolt and competitors for smolt forage.... Such as perch, pikeminnow, walleye, american shad etc...

He suggested that creel surveys indicate a limited future impact. I disagreed and told him that 80/20 rule destroys any creel data they collect. If they fail to survey the 20% of anglers who can and will catch 10-20 or more big fish during the spawn, then the data is flawed. Few anglers can and will make an impact regardless of creel.

I questioned why largemouth, who eat the heck out of non native fry, were included in this?

I asked why ruin tremendous fisheries with dart board blindfolded science. He got it.

I asked how anyone could know how many HEALTHY smolt come at the hands of the Bigger bass? I told him i had my doubts about big bass eating fast, healthy smolt.

He concluded by suggesting that in the comments section on wdfws website that it was "mostly sts guys commenting and in favor of the changes". I told him that Those vocalizations will now flip flop naturally with the flip flop of laws. I hope he got that.

Nice guy... But he concluded by saying "we know bass predate on smolt and/or compete with them. Therefore the state must work toward supporting esa protected fish regardless of less than accurate or incomplete predation or impact studies."

It was hilarious... He stated he just got off a conference call regarding a oceanic collapse in salmon stocks, then in the next breath suggests that until salmon return quota goals are met, then control over non native predators must be excecuted.

He completely understood and was aware of the validity of my points ... But I could tell his honest thoughts and the beaurocratic messaging were a source of internal conflict for him. I didn't need to make the points. He already knew them.

I asked why wdfw couldn't at least take a stand on behalf of bigger fish in the system that can be hurt, and are not likely as active in predation of healthy smolt as smaller dumber, less eficient bass. He didnt have an answer. Just suggested that if even 1 esa protected fish gets eaten, then management of the threat must take place.

John and Dana are right... But I do think squeaky wheels can be annoying enough to appease to some extent.

Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on March 14, 2016 at 8:17pm

Mr. Nelson,

Welcome to the site. As a respected and knowledgeable sportsman in our state, with many years of experience your opinions would be appreciated. You have had quite a career in the salmon and steelhead industry. You represent the group that we would like to hear from. I know that you are no stranger to this subject and I also know of your contributions to support our states salmon fishery.

Tom Nelson said:

Hey gang,

I've been lurking a bit and have not posted but I need to ask y'all...

In the face of ESA listed salmonid stocks and with the Columbia being one of the largest producers of salmon, is it a big surprise that this watershed would be managed by WDFW for native salmonid production?

Flame away if you must but I'm honestly wondering what this board's thoughts are on this issue.

Thanks!

Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on March 14, 2016 at 8:28pm

Is it a suprise?  No.  Does that make it science based management?  no.   I think you have a very "non native" eco system that is being managed as if it were the same free flowing, temperate stream it once was.  Gotta be able to club a sealion, kill a cormorant, or remove some native "rights" or something besides picking the low hanging irrelevant cherry.   I'd like for managers to study the idea that Spiny Rays and Anadramous fish can co-exist, as they do elsehwere.  I'd like managers to identify that smolt have many threats....Bass eat alot of those threats.  For god sakes, I'd love to see some tough battles get fought to prove that WDFW is anything more than a PR firm.

Tom Nelson said:

Hey gang,

I've been lurking a bit and have not posted but I need to ask y'all...

In the face of ESA listed salmonid stocks and with the Columbia being one of the largest producers of salmon, is it a big surprise that this watershed would be managed by WDFW for native salmonid production?

Flame away if you must but I'm honestly wondering what this board's thoughts are on this issue.

Thanks!

Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on March 14, 2016 at 8:31pm

Ryan,

Biologists have long deemed the yakima study a running joke as far as good science.  I asked Marc Marcantonio several years ago to explain to me what was wrong with it...   Here is a direct quote:

"

The Yakima work is the single most relied upon by opponents to unfairly condemn smallmouth bass.  It is mischaracterized to suit the purposes of opponents, and it is also very flawed when used to support a position that predation by bass is extensive.

 

Historically the lower Yakima has always had a predation problem due to the river's characteristics.  Predation is greater there than most anywhere else in the state due to the conditions.  What the opponents to bass fail to mention, is that predation was a huge problem (or in other words a way of life) from native northern pikeminnows in the lower Yakima. 

 

There is zero evidence that the predation problem now with bass is worse than it was before, with northern pikeminnows.

 

In fact, what the Yakima study shows can imply just the opposite.  Predation by bass occurs with small bass; rarely with large bass.  Bass have replaced predation by pikeminnows; they have "replaced" pikeminnows.  This could be due to large bass eating pikeminnows, which the study fails to address.

 

So the study never answers if predation is worse, only that it changed!"

Ryan Higgins said:

Unfortunately your 1985 study may be trumped by more recent studies that do indicate at certain times of the year Smallmouth Bass have a serious impact on juvenile Salmonid escapement.

Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on March 14, 2016 at 8:33pm

Mr. Nelson,

Could you please reply to Mr. McBroom's post below. I'm curious, I'm sure we are all curious!

Jeff McBroom said:

You are right, there have been some studies since 1985 but those studies prove the point we are making. WDFW is worried about the yakima river, great--they took the restrictions off of the bass there. Wtf does that have to do with the Columbia??? Also WDFW here is an FYI for you. You didn't have to make any rule changes to the Yakima river--- the bass get absolutely raped every year by "people" that dont give a flying fu#k about licenses, rules, regulations,  or limits. Thats a fact that I've witnessed. 

Here is another little nugget for the group. 2 days after the emergency regulation change on the Columbia river for bass, walleye and catfish came this emergency rule change:

(1)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1F  (Bonneville  Pool): (a)  Season:    6:00 AM  March  14  through 6:00 p.m.  March  21,  2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  38-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.  

 (2)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1G  (The  Dalles  Pool): (a)  Season:   Immediately  through 6:00 p.m. March 5,  2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with  no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  43-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.    

(3)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1H  (John Day  Pool): (a)  Season:   Immediately  through 6:00 p.m. March 12, 2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with  no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  43-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required. 

So much for saving that 1 protected esa fish!!

Permalink Reply by Ryan Higgins on March 14, 2016 at 9:12pm

My second link is actually a 1999 study by Zimmerman that includes the Yakima, Snake, and all of the Lower Columbia.  They go to show that the majority of Smallmouth damage is in the tributaries and not the mainstem, but the mainstem predation still exists.  Furthermore it is shown that Smallmouth migrate from the mainstem up into the tributaries during the spring smolt outmigration.

It does show that Smallmouth are more prone to consuming slamonids in the unimpounded portion of the Lower Columbia rather than the Reservoirs.

It also further proves that non Salmonid prey in the mainstem is the majority in Smallmouth and Walleye and not in Pikeminnow.

The science is there to back up what the WDFW is trying to do, although I do believe they are going about it the wrong way.

Jeff McBroom said:

You are right, there have been some studies since 1985 but those studies prove the point we are making. WDFW is worried about the yakima river, great--they took the restrictions off of the bass there. Wtf does that have to do with the Columbia??? Also WDFW here is an FYI for you. You didn't have to make any rule changes to the Yakima river--- the bass get absolutely raped every year by "people" that dont give a flying fu#k about licenses, rules, regulations,  or limits. Thats a fact that I've witnessed. 

Here is another little nugget for the group. 2 days after the emergency regulation change on the Columbia river for bass, walleye and catfish came this emergency rule change:

(1)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1F  (Bonneville  Pool): (a)  Season:    6:00 AM  March  14  through 6:00 p.m.  March  21,  2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  38-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.  

 (2)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1G  (The  Dalles  Pool): (a)  Season:   Immediately  through 6:00 p.m. March 5,  2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with  no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  43-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.    

(3)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1H  (John Day  Pool): (a)  Season:   Immediately  through 6:00 p.m. March 12, 2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with  no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  43-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required. 

So much for saving that 1 protected esa fish!!

Permalink Reply by Ryan Higgins on March 14, 2016 at 9:18pm

You hit the nail on the head.  These very points have been beaten to death among the Salmon and Steelheaders.  The only one you left out is habitat degradation.  WDFW does lots of knee jerk flash and show actions (like this predator rule) that make it look like they are doing something enormous for Salmonid recovery when in fact it is more publicity than actual management.  Instead of wasting time on this flash and show predator rule they could have been doing something more meaningful to the population.

Your high seas point is the major contributor to the Pugent Sound populations.  Plenty of smolt outmigrate, very few return.  The migration routes of Washingtons Salmonids is truly interesting, they make quite a journey.

Unfortunately our 22 million pails in comparison to the Salmon and Steelhead industry in this state and we will always play second fiddle.  Attempting to compromise is going to be the best strategy.  No different than the C&R guys vs the Stringer guys...

Jeff McBroom said:

The real problem is this --there are 4 problems with the "native" salmon runs. I say native because hatchery salmon runs are through the roof. (Which according to scientists is also bad)

1. Commercial fishing on the lower Columbia. 

2. Illegal harvest of Columbia river salmon on the hi seas.

3. Seals/sealions on the lower comumbia.

4. Nets in our rivers.

Even if we gave 3 out of 4 a pass, look at this stat on illegal harvest on the hi seas;

And no one really knows what is going on in the high seas, where endangered Snake River spring chinook salmon may wander into the illegal drift nets of Taiwanese, Japanese and Korean fishermen. The National Marine Fisheries Service takes the position that this problem was solved by an international moratorium on high seas drift netting. Alaskan fishermen, however, say that foreign boats still put out drift nets on the high seas; when spotted by observers, they simply cut the nets loose, which then continue to kill fish for years. One scientist has suggested that as many as 5.5 million salmon were harvested illegally on the high seas in a recent year.⁶⁴Visitors to Taiwanese markets have seen American steelhead in the markets.⁶⁵

The bottom line is that no one knows how many Columbia River salmon are caught in the ocean, and no one seems to care. The Atlantic Salmon Federation took action to protect Atlantic salmon by paying Faroe Islands fishermen $685,600 per year in compensation not to net the salmon in the North Atlantic. Three years later, twice as many salmon returned to native rivers in Iceland and elsewhere in Europe.⁶⁹ There may well be one or more classes of ocean harvesters who could be paid off to double salmon runs in the Columbia River.

Bottom line is this, WDFW needs to quit messing with the bass fishermen that generate an estimated 22million a year towards Washington's economy !!

Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on March 14, 2016 at 9:40pm

Ryan,

I have a simple question. Studies have shown that Salmonid mortality is high without predation. Take all of the predators out of the equation. What is the expected return from the years spawn-------it's documented that this is approximately a 15% survival rate. I have no doubt that there is predation of the Salmonids by Bass. However by taking stomach samples, how could one determine that the Salmonid was not destined to die without predation? Bass are opportunistic feeders, why chase something that is fast and strong when you can pick off the weak to fatten your belly? How can a Biologist determine from a stomach sample if the Salmonid would have been a survivor, or Crayfish food? Answer: You can't------this is why most of the documented data is manipulated for a cause. 

Ryan Higgins said:

My second link is actually a 1999 study by Zimmerman that includes the Yakima, Snake, and all of the Lower Columbia.  They go to show that the majority of Smallmouth damage is in the tributaries and not the mainstem, but the mainstem predation still exists.  Furthermore it is shown that Smallmouth migrate from the mainstem up into the tributaries during the spring smolt outmigration.

It does show that Smallmouth are more prone to consuming slamonids in the unimpounded portion of the Lower Columbia rather than the Reservoirs.

It also further proves that non Salmonid prey in the mainstem is the majority in Smallmouth and Walleye and not in Pikeminnow.

The science is there to back up what the WDFW is trying to do, although I do believe they are going about it the wrong way.

Jeff McBroom said:

You are right, there have been some studies since 1985 but those studies prove the point we are making. WDFW is worried about the yakima river, great--they took the restrictions off of the bass there. Wtf does that have to do with the Columbia??? Also WDFW here is an FYI for you. You didn't have to make any rule changes to the Yakima river--- the bass get absolutely raped every year by "people" that dont give a flying fu#k about licenses, rules, regulations,  or limits. Thats a fact that I've witnessed. 

Here is another little nugget for the group. 2 days after the emergency regulation change on the Columbia river for bass, walleye and catfish came this emergency rule change:

(1)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1F  (Bonneville  Pool): (a)  Season:    6:00 AM  March  14  through 6:00 p.m.  March  21,  2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  38-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.  

 (2)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1G  (The  Dalles  Pool): (a)  Season:   Immediately  through 6:00 p.m. March 5,  2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with  no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  43-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.    

(3)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1H  (John Day  Pool): (a)  Season:   Immediately  through 6:00 p.m. March 12, 2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with  no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  43-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required. 

So much for saving that 1 protected esa fish!!

Permalink Reply by Ryan Higgins on March 14, 2016 at 9:56pm

I think the study tends to answer your question.  The bigger bass, the ones less prone to chase and more prone to ambush, are not much of a contributing factor to mortality.  It is the smaller, more abundant fish that are shown with more Salmonid stomach contents.  Also the study points out the Smallmouth move into the tributaries to feed during outmigration.  The bass are moving in because of the easy meal.  It's no different than smallies schooling on Perch fry, it's not always the sick, weak, or dying fish that is eaten.  It's the sheer volume of food present and the opportunity to get one.  If we apply this to the mainstem both of us will most likely draw the same conclusion.  Larger body of water creates a larger dispersal of the smolts and they are no longer a targeted food source so much as an opportunistic food source, thus we see the lower consumption rates.

If you look at ANY study in relation to mortality of any juvenile fish you will see a very common factor, High Mortality.  Bass are victim to it themselves.  It is why they have evolved to reproduce in such numbers, survival rate is low.

You can argue those fish would have died without Bass eating them, but I can argue right back that they wouldn't have because both arguments are speculative.  What is fact is that less fish leaving the rivers and entering the ocean means less fish to complete that arduous journey and return to the river.

I'm not here to argue for the eradication of Bass from the Columbia.  It is a pipe dream and this law honestly is nothing more than flash and show by the departments to say "Look at us we are doing something."  Bass are affecting the Salmonid populations, that is fact.  Walleye are affecting the Kokanee population in Roosevelt.  Bass are even shown to be affecting the Sockeye Salmon in Lake Washington.  Instead of spinning their wheels by destroying a trophy Bass and Walleye fishery, WDFW should focus their time and energy into mitigating the four things Jeff pointed out as well as habitate degredation.  You know, the things that will produce MORE Salmonids to offset the ones consumed by the Bass which are going nowhere.
Dana Steiner said:

Ryan,

I have a simple question. Studies have shown that Salmonid mortality is high without predation. Take all of the predators out of the equation. What is the expected return from the years spawn-------it's documented that this is approximately a 15% survival rate. I have no doubt that there is predation of the Salmonids by Bass. However by taking stomach samples, how could one determine that the Salmonid was not destined to die without predation. Bass are opportunistic feeders, why chase something that is fast and strong when you can pick off the weak to fatten your belly. How can a Biologist determine from a stomach sample if the Salmonid would have been a survivor, or Crayfish food? Answer: You can't------this is why most of the documented data is manipulated for a cause. 

Ryan Higgins said:

My second link is actually a 1999 study by Zimmerman that includes the Yakima, Snake, and all of the Lower Columbia.  They go to show that the majority of Smallmouth damage is in the tributaries and not the mainstem, but the mainstem predation still exists.  Furthermore it is shown that Smallmouth migrate from the mainstem up into the tributaries during the spring smolt outmigration.

It does show that Smallmouth are more prone to consuming slamonids in the unimpounded portion of the Lower Columbia rather than the Reservoirs.

It also further proves that non Salmonid prey in the mainstem is the majority in Smallmouth and Walleye and not in Pikeminnow.

The science is there to back up what the WDFW is trying to do, although I do believe they are going about it the wrong way.

Jeff McBroom said:

You are right, there have been some studies since 1985 but those studies prove the point we are making. WDFW is worried about the yakima river, great--they took the restrictions off of the bass there. Wtf does that have to do with the Columbia??? Also WDFW here is an FYI for you. You didn't have to make any rule changes to the Yakima river--- the bass get absolutely raped every year by "people" that dont give a flying fu#k about licenses, rules, regulations,  or limits. Thats a fact that I've witnessed. 

Here is another little nugget for the group. 2 days after the emergency regulation change on the Columbia river for bass, walleye and catfish came this emergency rule change:

(1)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1F  (Bonneville  Pool): (a)  Season:    6:00 AM  March  14  through 6:00 p.m.  March  21,  2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  38-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.  

 (2)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1G  (The  Dalles  Pool): (a)  Season:   Immediately  through 6:00 p.m. March 5,  2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with  no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  43-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.    

(3)  Open Area:   SMCRA  1H  (John Day  Pool): (a)  Season:   Immediately  through 6:00 p.m. March 12, 2016.    (b)  Gear:  Gill nets  with  no  mesh  restriction.    (c)  Allowable  sale:  Salmon, steelhead, shad,  carp,  catfish, walleye, bass, or  yellow perch.   Sturgeon  between  43-54 inches  in fork length  may  be  sold or  kept  for subsistence.  Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required. 

So much for saving that 1 protected esa fish!!

Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on March 15, 2016 at 11:43am

Ryan,

Now we could start a whole new discussion, regarding a creatures ability to evolve and adapt to changes. Mother nature has proven to be a stronger force than we give her credit for. 

 

 Ryan Higgins said:

If you look at ANY study in relation to mortality of any juvenile fish you will see a very common factor, High Mortality.  Bass are victim to it themselves.  It is why they have evolved to reproduce in such numbers, survival rate is low.

Permalink Reply by Ryan Higgins on March 15, 2016 at 1:26pm

Fully agree.  The near complete draining of the Yakima with the inclusion of dams and un-screened water diversions is the biggest factor affecting outmigrating smolt.  Low flows, high water temps, fish being pulled into fields, easier ability for predators to prey on them.  It's huge.

You, I, everyone here, and WDFW knows we will never remove the Bass from the system at this stage.  The problem is this is a feelgood rule change and at least amending it to include a slot restriction would mitigate damage to the resource.

Jeff McBroom said:

Look the smallmouth bass have been in our river system for 90 years. Do they eat salmon--yes--a little bit. I think its time to grandfather them in and go after the real culprits I listed --plus habitat issues.

Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on March 15, 2016 at 7:06pm

Well, I for one don't "FEELGOOD" about this rule change.

Ryan Higgins said:

You, I, everyone here, and WDFW knows we will never remove the Bass from the system at this stage.  The problem is this is a feelgood rule change and at least amending it to include a slot restriction would mitigate damage to the resource.

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