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Disgusting: Lifting bass limits on the Columbia River!!
This is the biggest joke...This is about environmentalists trying to destroy an "invasive" species (bass, walleye, catfish) so that an "endangered species" (salmon, steelhead) can thrive. What a freakin' joke. We have had the largest recorded salmon runs ever the last few years. Liberalism and environmentalism at it's best.....How about getting the Native American Indian nets out of the river!! I almost ran over about 15 of them in a two mile trip on Saturday....Contact Bruce Bolding (360)902-8417, WDFW Warmwater Fisheries Manager. Make sure you leave a message....Get his e-mail....Let's let the protests begin!!!
Views: 3465
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tom Nelson on
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There's a pile to react to there and I do not pretend to know all the answers but just to comment on the Yakima; Obviously the Yak is a major tributary of the Columbia that joins the big C at Richland so whatever inhabits the Yak also inhabits the Columbia.
With regard to managing the "low hanging fruit" of warm water species in the Columbia I have to agree with the majority of the board here.
The much larger species management issues are pinnipeds (just ask the Port of Astoria and take a look below Bonneville sometime) and the non-native cormorant on Sand Island, not to mention the lower Columbia Caspian Tern problem.
Without question, the species named above are the larger piece of the overall predation issue than all bass and walleye combined yet the State and Feds lack the political will to swiftly and decisively address the problem.
While I'm in no way anti-bass (in fact I relate to and respect the passion expressed here) I am very pro hatchery and a strong supporter of selective fisheries.
We've compromised the habitat (especially in the Puget Sound Region) to the point that hatcheries are a necessary evil and I cannot imagine a path to salmonid recovery without hatchery supplementation.
I would like to focus on what the bass folks and salmon heads have in common:
The most significant predators to salmonids in the Columbia are cormorants and sea lions. If we could all work together on this issue I believe that we could garner support from the salmon stakeholders to pressure WDFW and the Commission for a more reasonable warm water regulation structure on the Columbia River.
Dana Steiner said:Mr. Nelson,
Could you please reply to Mr. McBroom's post below. I'm curious, I'm sure we are all curious!
Jeff McBroom said:You are right, there have been some studies since 1985 but those studies prove the point we are making. WDFW is worried about the yakima river, great--they took the restrictions off of the bass there. Wtf does that have to do with the Columbia??? Also WDFW here is an FYI for you. You didn't have to make any rule changes to the Yakima river--- the bass get absolutely raped every year by "people" that dont give a flying fu#k about licenses, rules, regulations, or limits. Thats a fact that I've witnessed.
Here is another little nugget for the group. 2 days after the emergency regulation change on the Columbia river for bass, walleye and catfish came this emergency rule change:
(1) Open Area: SMCRA 1F (Bonneville Pool): (a) Season: 6:00 AM March 14 through 6:00 p.m. March 21, 2016. (b) Gear: Gill nets with no mesh restriction. (c) Allowable sale: Salmon, steelhead, shad, carp, catfish, walleye, bass, or yellow perch. Sturgeon between 38-54 inches in fork length may be sold or kept for subsistence. Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.
(2) Open Area: SMCRA 1G (The Dalles Pool): (a) Season: Immediately through 6:00 p.m. March 5, 2016. (b) Gear: Gill nets with no mesh restriction. (c) Allowable sale: Salmon, steelhead, shad, carp, catfish, walleye, bass, or yellow perch. Sturgeon between 43-54 inches in fork length may be sold or kept for subsistence. Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.
(3) Open Area: SMCRA 1H (John Day Pool): (a) Season: Immediately through 6:00 p.m. March 12, 2016. (b) Gear: Gill nets with no mesh restriction. (c) Allowable sale: Salmon, steelhead, shad, carp, catfish, walleye, bass, or yellow perch. Sturgeon between 43-54 inches in fork length may be sold or kept for subsistence. Live release of all oversize and under-size sturgeon is required.
So much for saving that 1 protected esa fish!!
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Permalink Reply by Ben Hanes on
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Tom,
Good words. I completely agree.
Why is WDFW set on eradicating smallmouth (and largemouth!?), but not having strong management of sea lions, cormorants, and terns!? It seems so.....political and wrong.
Tom, we need guys like you to push this....You are fairly knowledgeable and unbiased, and you understand what's going on, it seems, more than most. Yes, there needs to be management of bass (slot limits, etc.), but not complete attempted eradication. It's guys like you who might be able to penetrate WDFW, because you can see both sides of the coin.
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Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on
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Mr. Nelson,
I appreciate your response. I too enjoy fishing for Salmon and Steelhead, I just don't get the opportunities like I did in years past. I think you will find that a large majority of the warmwater members on this site, are avid fishermen-----not just Bass fishermen. I have many close friends that are die hard Salmon and Steelhead fishermen, I support them-----even if they joke that I chase freshwater Rock Cod in a sparkle barge.
We need to hear more from this group. Better yet, we need to combine our efforts. The Salmon group is again under attack to severely limit and even possibly restrict you from your passion.
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Permalink Reply by Ryan Higgins on
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That is fine, we are all entitled to our opinion. The mainstem dams are never coming out, that I agree with you on. They are too important to the local communities and the ecological impact on the land wouldn't be the best. It's a lot of the smaller dams and diversions on the tributaries where the majority of spawning takes place that need to be removed or mitigated. They are also finally drafting plans for a feasible fish ladder around Grand Coulee. We can continue to keep creating record runs of hatchery brats that exceed the carrying capacity of the habitat or we can attempt to provide more habitat. The greatest thing that could be done for the Columbia River Salmon is allowing passage beyond Grand Coulee.
We can look at all the record hatchery returns and say "Yay" all we want, but the ideal solution is to manage the resource so it can sustain itself. Spend the money on habitat restoration, fighting legal battles to remove Indian nets, studying ocean survival and the impacts, etc. Eventually the resource can and will replenish itself and hatcheries will now be needed. They are a crutch.
On the excess Salmon, the more the better. Again the carcass' provide the nutrients that drives the PNW ecosystem. Carcass' are taken from hatcheries and deposited back into the river or other waters without returns anymore to provide the nutrients and benefit the ecosystem. If there is one benefit of the hatchery programs besides allowing a sport season it is nutrient returns.
Jeff McBroom said:Ryan,
On this point I will agree to disagree with you.
Obviously none of us have a zero carbon footprint and the dams are never coming out. The size of the salmon returns the last few years and how that impacts our states economy speak volumes to the benefits of the hatchery programs. Plus the opportunities these huge salmon runs offer the sportsfishermen is unprecedented in the last 80 years.
Why does it matter if its wild or hatchery?? Don't even get me going on the fact for the last 3 years on the snake river we are catching way more wild fish than ever before. Many others have told me the exact same thing. Obviously there are alot of wild fish making it back.
Ryan Higgins said:Jeff,
I am an open advocate against hatchery supplementation. They are there solely to appease the meat fishers in this state and allow an open season on rivers that would otherwise be closed. They have been shown by studies out of Oregon to have some detrimental effects on recovering wild fish and there is speculation about other impacts that could be taking place. Once the return quota is reached the rest of the fish are there for the sportsman. Not only do the hatchery fish compete with wild fish, but the opening of these rivers creates incidental catches of the ESA listed wild fish which can cause mortality. The only positive is the nutrients the carcasses return to the system. It is the lifeblood of the PNW and with depleted runs there are less nutrients to go back into the environment.
Not all Salmon and Steelhead guys are for hatcheries. The majority of the Fly and Spey community is against them. Again the state has pitted Fly vs Gear fisherman against each other in an ongoing battle with private organizations who are attempting to eliminate hatchery plants. I love to fly and spey fish for Steelhead and occasionally Salmon. When the waters are frozen and the Bass arent biting I become a Steelhead nut. It's tough to toe the line, but it is possible.
Jeff McBroom said:Ryan,
1 more comment/item, and this isn't directed at you more a question for you. How much compassion are we supposed to have for the salmon guys (sportsman, commercial, natives, even the f-ing seals/sea lions) when I just got done reading a 2012 State Report discussing how to manage all of the excess "hatchery" salmon that are making it back upstream every year?? Literally there are too many making it back every year. I'm pretty sure the sportsmen, commercial guys, natives or seals don't care--so who really does???
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So rather than just let this conversation slide way-side....Ryan and Tom...What are we going to do about this? Are you guys willing to help stand up to WDFW, or draft a letter to WDFW (as I have received no response), or form a committee, something....Anything? Please?
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We as fishermen an women, would benefit from creating some sort of group/committee to keep tabs on WDFW. We need to know before they implement new regs on us, weather it be for salmon or warmwater fish etc. This being behind the 8 ball all the time and bitchin about it online really doesn't get much accomplished. We have to as a group come together (somehow) and fight for what we enjoy, and spend a lot of money on. I think way to many outdoorsmen an women take what we get to do for granted, it may not always be there if we don't do something about it.
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This is a slight pivot from the traditional group think that goes on but here is the letter I'm submitting. I enjoy fishing for bad as much as the next guy, but they should not be in anadromous systems.
To Whom It May Concern,
As an angler for the last 2 years in the State of Washington, I am extremely concerned about the WDFW’s biased and liberal agenda with regards to fisheries management. The most recent ruling, in regards to not lifting all limits on walleye, bass, and catfish, in Lake Washington is beyond an irresponsible decision, and only goes to satisfy those politicians, bass anglers, and left-winged activists at the very top. It’s extremely unfair that a select few can make this decision.
According to the Cool water fisheries manager, this decision was made to protect an “outspoken user group.” How could that be? The salmon runs Lake Washington have been decreasing for years. The area 10 fishery was closed in 2015 due to put hatchery returns. The steelhead runs are effectively extinct. Furthermore, numerous tests and studies have been done in the past that implicate smallmouth bass as a top predator of salmonids. The opposite is being promulgated by the most recent liberal, extreme environmentalists bass anglers. (See: http://www.wafish.com/group/bassfishing/forum/topics/disgusting-lif...)
The truth as stated by science (Tabor et al. 2004, Predation of juvenile Chinook salmon by predatory fishes in three areas of the Lake Washington basin):
“Smallmouth bass of all size categories consumed salmonids. The smallest smallmouth bass observed to have consumed a salmonid was 138 mm fork length (FL). Predation appeared to be highest in June, when salmonids made up approximately 50% of their diet. ”
All recent studies that have been performed emphatically support that bass, walleye, and catfish are detrimental to salmonids, WHY are NO limits are lifted on these ecologically destructive species? This does not only seem political; it is also irresponsible!
What evidence do you have that non-native (i.e. illegal invaders) predators, which spend most of their lives indiscriminately eating salmonids, belong in the Lake Washington basin? How could this even be possible?
If smallmouth and walleye are such an integral component of the ecosystem, how is it that all salmonid fisheries (Chinook, Coho, and Sockeye) in Lake Washington collapsing?
What sort of science is the department relying on? It would seem to me, political science, as this decision is based solely on opinion, environmentalism, and liberalism.
Is the department aware of how much revenue is generated in this state with regards to blackmouth fishing and the Area 10 summer fishery that was closed due to poor hatchery returns in 2015? Is the department aware of the number of salmon anglers in the state?
In closing, I am contacting all salmon anglers and asking them to put a stop to the state's support and management of illeagle invaders. A wall must be built and we are going to have bass anglers pay for it. -
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Mr. Scott Warren,
You obviously have too much time on your hands, and you're fortunate that you live in a liberal state that supports the liberal agenda of salmon and steelhead management. I imagine you are a bleeding heart liberal yourself, and wouldn't be surprised if you voted for our liberal senators and governor, and are set to vote for Bernie, or better yet, a lady president.
Go waste your time somewhere else you jackwagon.
If you are indeed politically conservative, you need to spend some time pulling your head out of your ass and thinking like a person that has a brain, rather than an environmentalist with an agenda.
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I like how you cherry picked a piece of that paper to fit your agenda. Why dont we take a look at the actual findings instead of an abstract that proves nothing?
"Our primary objective was to evaluate the significance of black bass predation on juvenile salmonids in the Lake Washington system, especially on naturally produced, federally protected Chinook salmon. Our results suggest that black bass predation on all salmonids was low under the conditions studied."
"Estimates of 9,000 juvenile Chinook salmon eaten in Lake Washington and 15,000 eaten in the LWSC translate to mortality estimates of 0.4% in the lake and 0.6% in the LWSC."
"Our results support the hypothesis that black bass predation on salmonids under current conditions is not a major factor limiting recovery of naturally produced Chinook salmon populations associated with the Lake Washington system."
Before you site a source, you should probably read the source to see whether it fits your agenda or not.
http://www.mercergov.org/files/23%20-%20Smallmouth%20Bass%20and%20L...
Scott Warren said:This is a slight pivot from the traditional group think that goes on but here is the letter I'm submitting. I enjoy fishing for bad as much as the next guy, but they should not be in anadromous systems.
To Whom It May Concern,
As an angler for the last 2 years in the State of Washington, I am extremely concerned about the WDFW’s biased and liberal agenda with regards to fisheries management. The most recent ruling, in regards to not lifting all limits on walleye, bass, and catfish, in Lake Washington is beyond an irresponsible decision, and only goes to satisfy those politicians, bass anglers, and left-winged activists at the very top. It’s extremely unfair that a select few can make this decision.
According to the Cool water fisheries manager, this decision was made to protect an “outspoken user group.” How could that be? The salmon runs Lake Washington have been decreasing for years. The area 10 fishery was closed in 2015 due to put hatchery returns. The steelhead runs are effectively extinct. Furthermore, numerous tests and studies have been done in the past that implicate smallmouth bass as a top predator of salmonids. The opposite is being promulgated by the most recent liberal, extreme environmentalists bass anglers. (See: http://www.wafish.com/group/bassfishing/forum/topics/disgusting-lif...)
The truth as stated by science (Tabor et al. 2004, Predation of juvenile Chinook salmon by predatory fishes in three areas of the Lake Washington basin):
“Smallmouth bass of all size categories consumed salmonids. The smallest smallmouth bass observed to have consumed a salmonid was 138 mm fork length (FL). Predation appeared to be highest in June, when salmonids made up approximately 50% of their diet. ”
All recent studies that have been performed emphatically support that bass, walleye, and catfish are detrimental to salmonids, WHY are NO limits are lifted on these ecologically destructive species? This does not only seem political; it is also irresponsible!
What evidence do you have that non-native (i.e. illegal invaders) predators, which spend most of their lives indiscriminately eating salmonids, belong in the Lake Washington basin? How could this even be possible?
If smallmouth and walleye are such an integral component of the ecosystem, how is it that all salmonid fisheries (Chinook, Coho, and Sockeye) in Lake Washington collapsing?
What sort of science is the department relying on? It would seem to me, political science, as this decision is based solely on opinion, environmentalism, and liberalism.
Is the department aware of how much revenue is generated in this state with regards to blackmouth fishing and the Area 10 summer fishery that was closed due to poor hatchery returns in 2015? Is the department aware of the number of salmon anglers in the state?
In closing, I am contacting all salmon anglers and asking them to put a stop to the state's support and management of illeagle invaders. A wall must be built and we are going to have bass anglers pay for it. -
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Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on
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Ryan gives good advice.
I would digress, and simply state that it has been PROVEN that anadramous and warm water predators have co-existed, and continue to co-exist all over North America.
I get where you are coming from Scott, but you are wasting time moving to the lowest common denominator in which we aren't even sure if there is ANY real impact. This is like Fist fighting with a ghost. You could connect right on the button with that glass jaw ghost...but you are still going to miss. Bass won't ever be eradicated, and they are not proven to be a limiting factor in recovery of salmon stocks. You are wasting your time.
I'd love to see you put your effort toward cormorants, terns, sealions, natives letting steelhead ROT in the columbia river gorge in the summer on the bank...etc. Those are real wins. Tougher wins MAYBE....but absolutely worth your time at least.
Stop trying to fist fight with Ghosts. Even if you connect, you will still miss.
One last thing: Please don't proof read your letter before you sent it! You will be very difficult to be taken seriously, and that is the way I'd like it to remain.
Ryan Higgins said:Before you site a source, you should probably read the source to see whether it fits your agenda or not.
http://www.mercergov.org/files/23%20-%20Smallmouth%20Bass%20and%20L...
Scott Warren said:This is a slight pivot from the traditional group think that goes on but here is the letter I'm submitting. -
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Permalink Reply by Josh Potter on
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Scott Warren,
This is a slight pivot from the group's traditional response to a new member posting comments that are clearly intended to be purely inflammatory and mostly ignorant........ You are an ASSSHOLE!
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Jake Anderson said:Ryan gives good advice.
I would digress, and simply state that it has been PROVEN that anadramous and warm water predators have co-existed, and continue to co-exist all over North America.
I get where you are coming from Scott, but you are wasting time moving to the lowest common denominator in which we aren't even sure if there is ANY real impact. This is like Fist fighting with a ghost. You could connect right on the button with that glass jaw ghost...but you are still going to miss. Bass won't ever be eradicated, and they are not proven to be a limiting factor in recovery of salmon stocks. You are wasting your time.
I'd love to see you put your effort toward cormorants, terns, sealions, natives letting steelhead ROT in the columbia river gorge in the summer on the bank...etc. Those are real wins. Tougher wins MAYBE....but absolutely worth your time at least.
Stop trying to fist fight with Ghosts. Even if you connect, you will still miss.
One last thing: Please don't proof read your letter before you sent it! You will be very difficult to be taken seriously, and that is the way I'd like it to remain.
Ryan Higgins said:Before you site a source, you should probably read the source to see whether it fits your agenda or not.
http://www.mercergov.org/files/23%20-%20Smallmouth%20Bass%20and%20L...
Scott Warren said:This is a slight pivot from the traditional group think that goes on but here is the letter I'm submitting.
Thanks for proof reading the letter I typed on my phone. :/ -
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