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Tournament Fishing Participation - How do you decide?
After talking to some friends of mine about tournament fishing in general, the new tournaments coming, legacy tournaments that have been around a long time, and everything in between I want to know a couple things from the people on here:
- What you think about the number of tournaments in general?
- How do you decide which ones to do?
When you stop and think about all the tournaments coming in 2016 for example it is pretty shocking to see how far spread out anglers could become. That list of tournaments in 2016 includes:
- Northwest Bass
- ABA East and West
- The New Big Bass Trail
- TBF Qualifiers
- BASS Qualifiers
- Open Tournaments
- Club Tournaments
Pretty wild when you consider how many tournaments that is and actually put those dates to the calendar and see almost every weekend with multiple events from April through September.
Here's my thoughts:
#1 In my opinion there are a limited number of tournament bass fishermen in the northwest and based on the participation of tournaments this year and in the last couple of years, almost across the board (there are a few exceptions), I would argue that so many tournaments is not good for tournament fishing in general. It appears to me that the market has become diluted already and even more events are coming up. That is not to say that I do not believe in competition. I will be the first person to tell you that when there's more competition, figure out a way to do what everyone else is doing and make it better, but unfortunately I don't see that now or in the future. I see too much of the same stuff, or see new things that just don't appeal to me. Wasn't it alot more fun and didn't it mean a heck of alot more to the anglers personally when they did well, as well as the appeal to sponsors when there were 100+ boats at an event or events in a circuit.
#2 For me, I typically choose a tournament trail based on the schedule, how "fun" the lake is to fish at the given time of year, and my level of confidence that I can get my money back. Alot of my decision making is about potential ROI for me at this point which pretty much rules out all club and qualifier events. I at least want the opportunity to make my money back if I get lucky enough to cash a check over a weekend or at least have a great time trying. So I choose the circuit where I both feel the most confident I can do well, compared with the investment and payback, and the uniqueness or amount of fun I am going to have to justify the expense. Then mix in an open tournament or two where it makes sense and doesn't conflict with prefish of whatever circuit I choose. Oh and then compare that with the family plans and events with the wife and kids.
So I'll end my rambling with a challenge to tournament directors or circuits. Use the resources you have at your disposal, listen to the anglers, work a little harder to separate yourself, think outside of the box and figure out how to stand above everything else. Maybe this is being done now and I'm missing something and if so I apologize, but I can't be the only one feeling this way.
Thoughts?
Views: 10790
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on
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Hi Don,
If I thought "no off limits" had a snowballs chance in hell of growing a circuit, or making an angler "better" then I would be on board. I just don't believe those two things.
Btw...it wasn't "off limits" that kept you from fishing BBT. It was obnoxious scheduling, designed to "compete" with another boat supplier, that limited your opportunity. It's the same crap we see on the schedule this year...unbelievably.
I believe in 4 very simple things:
1. If the top 20 teams are always winning, then the rules are good. It means that skill is being rewarded.
2. Changing the rules isn't likely to increase participation. Participation in NWBASS/ABA will follow the growth trend of High School angling, Club and Federation participation no matter the off limits, or any other rules. Josh Potter hit this on the head with regard to pie size and buggy whips.
3. Time on the water is incredibly misunderstood...
4. Dana Steiner is starving us of his opinions. He knows we are waiting for it. We know we'll never get it.
-The one idea that I have for helping anglers get better at competing, is that tournament directors should publish a provisional schedule 1-2 years in advance.
This would allow for scheduling kinks to get worked out, but more importantly it allows new anglers to familiarize themselves with a body of water during the correct seasonal time frames, and at least learn to navigate safely, and mark some areas they want to explore. I know, I know...a lot changes. That's beside the point. A guy who is at least somewhat familiar with a body of water, has an exponentially more efficient pre-fish, than those who are idling around, just trying to learn how to run the boat without blowing off a lower unit.
Don Hogue said:Jake,
I think you already made my point earlier...
"Who wasn't at the big bass tourney and how'd they do the following week at NWBass? I cant recall if Vern Malensky, or if Marc Lippincott fished big bass or not, but I know Hogue/Brown, and boomer/bryan, cox/schilling were pre fishing the river and their teams combined for 60lbs.."
I know we would have participated in the Big Bass event if we didn't have the off limits of the next event to deal with.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Hanes on
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Snake,
Actually, skill isn't being rewarded. There's an opportunity to set the elite 20 or so apart, significantly increase the entry fees and sponsorships of these individuals, and there will be actual payouts that are real in quality. Winning $5,000 is peanuts when the team has $80k boat(s) and spent $1,000+ just to pre fish and cover costs, and they have to split the money 2 ways, all the while sacrificing two weekends or more away from their home and family for no real incentive. Similarly, it doesn't help much to win a $15-$20k boat when boat prices, fully loaded, are running at $80k!
So, what we have is a few really skilled anglers who are actually losing money or barely breaking even, and a whole lot of anglers who are losing a ton of money because the top 10 or less are winning 70%+ of all monies.
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Permalink Reply by Don Hogue on
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Seriously...well, kinda...
It's time to correct a bunch of "half-truths"
By definition, the top 20 teams are always winning.
The top 20 ABA teams are also the 20 that signed up.
Off limits keeps the universe in balance...except for when it's magically okay to have a Friday prefish before a championship (NW Bass) or no off limits before a championship (ABA). So I am to assume that all the things that applied during the regular season to necessitate an off limits period no longer apply for the biggest event of the year?
You can't legislate lazy, brainless, or any other ailment when it comes to bass fishing. Arbitrary, random off limit days don't fix it.
Effort, hard work and time on the water are all incredibly misunderstood. We all think we work hard.
Here's a guy who starting at the age of 4 would wake up at 5am to go skate in his backyard...
They really should have had an "off limits" for him. How is that fair to the kid growing up in Florida?
Snake said:Hi Don,
If I thought "no off limits" had a snowballs chance in hell of growing a circuit, or making an angler "better" then I would be on board. I just don't believe those two things.
Btw...it wasn't "off limits" that kept you from fishing BBT. It was obnoxious scheduling, designed to "compete" with another boat supplier, that limited your opportunity. It's the same crap we see on the schedule this year...unbelievably.
I believe in 4 very simple things:
1. If the top 20 teams are always winning, then the rules are good. It means that skill is being rewarded.
2. Changing the rules isn't likely to increase participation. Participation in NWBASS/ABA will follow the growth trend of High School angling, Club and Federation participation no matter the off limits, or any other rules. Josh Potter hit this on the head with regard to pie size and buggy whips.
3. Time on the water is incredibly misunderstood...
4. Dana Steiner is starving us of his opinions. He knows we are waiting for it. We know we'll never get it.
-The one idea that I have for helping anglers get better at competing, is that tournament directors should publish a provisional schedule 1-2 years in advance.
This would allow for scheduling kinks to get worked out, but more importantly it allows new anglers to familiarize themselves with a body of water during the correct seasonal time frames, and at least learn to navigate safely, and mark some areas they want to explore. I know, I know...a lot changes. That's beside the point. A guy who is at least somewhat familiar with a body of water, has an exponentially more efficient pre-fish, than those who are idling around, just trying to learn how to run the boat without blowing off a lower unit.
Don Hogue said:Jake,
I think you already made my point earlier...
"Who wasn't at the big bass tourney and how'd they do the following week at NWBass? I cant recall if Vern Malensky, or if Marc Lippincott fished big bass or not, but I know Hogue/Brown, and boomer/bryan, cox/schilling were pre fishing the river and their teams combined for 60lbs.."
I know we would have participated in the Big Bass event if we didn't have the off limits of the next event to deal with.
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Snake,
I'm not really sure he (Josh Potter) meant that with buggy whips and the pie. It would be interesting to hear him elaborate because I could be wrong, he could be right....I thought what he was saying was the pie (angler base) has gotten smaller, much smaller. And then he wanted to hear why that is...And then he compared our aimless discussion of scheduling issues to buggy whips (which are useless because there aren't horse carriages anymore). Basically I thought what he was saying is a "car" needs to be invented to bring anglers back, in other words, MAJOR CHANGES....That's how I took it, I could be wrong.
On a high level lookout, I kind of think a lot of guys who used to fish NWB, etc, like I said earlier, got tired of fishing NWB, ABA because of costs, same guys winning, etc. They saw no reason to go back to the clubs because the clubs don't cover costs and there's no money in them whatsoever, so they just stopped altogether, or became extremely selective....
Back in 2005, the economic situation was much different also. Things were moving quickly, non-endemic sponsors were sponsoring bass fisherman, companies had money I think....Boat dealers/circuits were giving away top of the line $40k boats at the championships, there were $10k incentives, Nixons Cash, entry fees were lower, there was open pre-fishing, gas prices were just on the rise, gear was cheaper and wages were higher....A bunch of guys jumped on the circuit bandwagon because there was actually real money involved finally.....Well, when the boat incentives and top of the line boat (championship rewards) dropped off, and the entry fees went up, payouts stayed the same, and gas prices sky-rocketed, and the boat prices dramtically went up, you had a pool of a bunch of new circuit bass fisherman who all of the sudden realized, "This isn't really worth it." It took most of them a couple to few years to realize they were getting their butts handed to them by the top guys, and there wasn't real money in it any longer.....Once there's real money involved again, guys will come back.
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Don,
You are correct, the top 20 teams are always winning by definition. However, this is a discussion on why tournament circuits have gotten smaller. If, over a number of years, the same top 20 teams are always winning when there's 120 teams competing, eventually guys check out....that's the reason other states have Pro's. Because, if they didn't, guys like Brent Ehler (or Ron Hobbs LOL) would be competing against Ben Hanes....By definition, Brent Ehler is top 20, but notice how in FLW and BASS Elites, the winners are actually spread out. You don't have 3 guys winning 70% of the events. The reason is because it's a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. They are all pros......
In the Northwest, you have pros (or pro-level talent), like yourself and Ron Hobbs, who are competing against a mass of non-pros. By definition, Don Hogue is top 20 in NWB and is always winning. By definition, Ben Hanes is not top 20.....So, why is Ben Hanes going to voluntarily compete against Brent Ehler on a regular basis? Just to see if he can beat him? That's stupid; that's letting your ego get bigger than your brains. I am not going to break the bank competing against a pro who is going kick my butt 95% of the time....That's why there's pro's, semi-pro's, and amateurs......Now you can argue, "Well, the amateurs should be fishing the clubs," but that's the problem! That's EXACTLY what is happening! The amateurs and "semi-pro's" are leaving NWB, etc, and either fishing the clubs or stopping altogether, because they are getting there butts handed to them by pro-level talent and they are spending too much money and time doing so, and if this is a discussion about why circuits are getting smaller, I think it's a pretty valid argument.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Bess on
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Ben,
What once was a solid topic Jordan started, turned into a bitchfest about blah, blah, blah by you. There isn't a top 20 team that doesn't do the work to be successful. None of them "get lucky". Occasionally they may catch a unicorn, but that's because they did the work. Example- I watched Jason Bryan fight heat stroke, hot beer and a 3/0 treble in his hand during the NWB pre fish at Moses last year- 3 days straight in 105 degree weather. I left Sat at noon because I was a pussy. Guess what? Bryan and Boomer won the event. This story can be repeated over and over again by most, if not all of the top 20 teams regardless of what circuit they fish. You make a few valid points, but it seems to me you are using this topic to bitch about what someone or some entity should do to make it easier/more profitable for you to fish tournaments. If you think fishing any of the WA tournaments should have the potential to cash flow your investment in this sport, then I don't want you doing my taxes... -
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Permalink Reply by troy kelly on
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Bottom line is if we want more incentives and higher payouts then we have to show up and fish. No sponsor is gonna give their product as incentive to a circuit that doesn't draw a lot of boats and or media attention.
I think it's crazy to believe that as a new team coming in that you will just instantly succeed. That's like me buying an archery tag and being pissed when I sling arrows over the top of animals. I would be willing to bet many of the top teams now we're not incredibly successful when they first started they just kept showing up and fishing their ass off.
As far as no off limits I think it can't hurt. Especially for a circuit that spans they entire state. -
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Mike,
As such...Washington will continue to remain behind the curve in the fishing world. We'll be the only state with lots of bass fisherman that does not have a pro-level circuit.
And Mike, trust me, I know the top 20 don't get lucky. That is extremely obvious. And I know they work hard. And I know they deserve more than they are getting.
This is definitely not about ME Mike, I would rather help than hinder and teach than deceive, win, and prove I'm the best... It's about why the circuits are getting smaller. There is a reason. What do you think it is?
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Permalink Reply by Angie Dover on
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Yes, scheduling is very difficult, it's one of the hardest parts of running a circuit. You pick a lake you think will work for everyone but that sure back fires! You try to not to schedule over any other tournaments but that sure back fires! You try new lakes because everyone is tired of fishing the same lakes...guess what....yep, that back fires too! We have a small number of lake that are big enough with all the proper facilities to run tournaments out of. Plus all the State regs. on how many boats on a body of water, launch permits and cost, finding someone to pay plaques etc.. I'll go wherever you guys want....I'm working on a voting ballot that will be handed out at the first few ABA's so anglers who are participating in tournaments can let me know where they want to go in 2017. If you want a 2 year schedule, that great, let's work on it!
Some anglers want all off limits, some want no off limits. I think I did a really good compromise by having Friday as an open day...truthfully, to me, I don't care if we have off limits or not, it doesn't affect how I run the tournament. I still collect the money then 8 hours later I give it back to you, the teams that did better than others. :) But I think / hope that anglers who said they would participate will now step up and participate. More participation gets bigger payout bottom line.
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Angie....It's awesome you are listening to the anglers. That is respectable and awesome trait of a tournament director/circuit owner.
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Permalink Reply by Taylor Smith on
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I couldn't disagree with you more Mike. To say Ben has turned this thread it to a bitchfest is ignorant.
Ben, I wouldn’t stand alone to say like Steiner already has, your humble and candid response to this topic is honorable and truthful.
How some of you guys can argue against Ben’s point that the top few anglers are winning most of the money on a consistent basis; is beyond me. It’s true. There is no doubt that his overall argument (regardless of whether his statistical analysis is accurate) is absolutely correct. Your opinion shouldn’t always be found where you can find the most personal incentive around this subject or any other. I would love to sit here and say that the top few don’t win most of the money in hopes that I will convince more people to fish but that’s not the truth. Do the top performing anglers have an ‘It’ factor that makes them better? I guess not, it’s not magic or luck as Mike says; and yeah, it comes from really hard work but it also comes from their ability to make decisions better than others, manage their time better than others, their critical thinking skills, and a lot of other factors. If that’s what you are calling ‘It’ then yeah, there is a magic ‘it’ factor. Ben isn’t taking away the fact that people work their asses off to be good.
It’s not hard to see why participation is decreasing. It’s not rocket science and you don’t need statistical analysis to figure it out. The top guys that consistently win are the guys I see most out on the water, they pre fish harder and harder every year. As the effort needed to win increases, there are less people willing to exert that effort when the incentive is only decreasing. You have to put more effort to win less money than you use to in the amateur sport of bass fishing in the Northwest. Disagree? And these are the same people whom have never thought of Bass Fishing as a way to make money but rather a hobby that they love. But with the above being true, it’s harder to enjoy it. Money drives their ability to participate in their hobby.
Increased tournament options will spread anglers out and give lower overall participation per event. Period. That’s the point of the thread. Increased incentive to fish a particular circuit or event will increase participation.
The timing of this discussion couldn’t be better by the way. It feels like a hinge point for bass fishing in the Pacific Northwest. So thanks Jordan again for bringing it up.
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Ben,
It's a valid argument.
I agree the model is broken. I agree the top guys win more than the others. I agree that can be frustrating.
You are asking NW Bass or ABA to correct a model that is not unique to the NW. Other "pros" didn't become so because their state somehow recognized their value and promoted them to that status. They financed a way to qualify, then qualified, then financed a way to participate on the Elites or on the Tour. Several of our own from the NW have done so over the years.
Out state doesn't have a different model. The Elites haven't been able to fix it. FLW hasn't been able to fix it. These "pros" win more money because they pay more money to enter.
Your scenario of the top guys guys dominating happens all over this country. Think somebody hasn't suggested Ray Hanselman move on already? But he finds himself in the same situation as all the others - an invitation to be a "pro" accompanied with a bill for $30,000 to $50,000 before he spends a penny on gas, a boat, a truck or any tackle.
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