The Online Source for Washington Fishing Information
Tournament Fishing Participation - How do you decide?
After talking to some friends of mine about tournament fishing in general, the new tournaments coming, legacy tournaments that have been around a long time, and everything in between I want to know a couple things from the people on here:
- What you think about the number of tournaments in general?
- How do you decide which ones to do?
When you stop and think about all the tournaments coming in 2016 for example it is pretty shocking to see how far spread out anglers could become. That list of tournaments in 2016 includes:
- Northwest Bass
- ABA East and West
- The New Big Bass Trail
- TBF Qualifiers
- BASS Qualifiers
- Open Tournaments
- Club Tournaments
Pretty wild when you consider how many tournaments that is and actually put those dates to the calendar and see almost every weekend with multiple events from April through September.
Here's my thoughts:
#1 In my opinion there are a limited number of tournament bass fishermen in the northwest and based on the participation of tournaments this year and in the last couple of years, almost across the board (there are a few exceptions), I would argue that so many tournaments is not good for tournament fishing in general. It appears to me that the market has become diluted already and even more events are coming up. That is not to say that I do not believe in competition. I will be the first person to tell you that when there's more competition, figure out a way to do what everyone else is doing and make it better, but unfortunately I don't see that now or in the future. I see too much of the same stuff, or see new things that just don't appeal to me. Wasn't it alot more fun and didn't it mean a heck of alot more to the anglers personally when they did well, as well as the appeal to sponsors when there were 100+ boats at an event or events in a circuit.
#2 For me, I typically choose a tournament trail based on the schedule, how "fun" the lake is to fish at the given time of year, and my level of confidence that I can get my money back. Alot of my decision making is about potential ROI for me at this point which pretty much rules out all club and qualifier events. I at least want the opportunity to make my money back if I get lucky enough to cash a check over a weekend or at least have a great time trying. So I choose the circuit where I both feel the most confident I can do well, compared with the investment and payback, and the uniqueness or amount of fun I am going to have to justify the expense. Then mix in an open tournament or two where it makes sense and doesn't conflict with prefish of whatever circuit I choose. Oh and then compare that with the family plans and events with the wife and kids.
So I'll end my rambling with a challenge to tournament directors or circuits. Use the resources you have at your disposal, listen to the anglers, work a little harder to separate yourself, think outside of the box and figure out how to stand above everything else. Maybe this is being done now and I'm missing something and if so I apologize, but I can't be the only one feeling this way.
Thoughts?
Views: 10790
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on
-
Ben, my ideas are kept to myself, because they are far fetched. Here are some.
Most businesses or models that are successful, can be clearly understood from a SWOT analysis. Its oversimplified, and there are other analytic models, but things start to stand out.
If you do a SWOT or another model for analysis on ABA/NWBASS, the external threats are OVERWHELMING, and the external opportunities are so minimal. That is not healthy.
I'd look at it like a bass fishery. It is cyclical. Sometimes you just have to let it run its course, and it will eventually figure itself out. Or you can intervene, Poison it, start over. Or at least artificially manipulate it.
You can't manipulate anything with isolated voices, and a myriad of agendas. The only way to make any real progress would be to form a Bass Fishing Union for the Pacific Northwest. A union is a bad word with some, but its a unified voice.
The responsibilities of such a group of anglers would be to mediate tournament directors and their schedules. To recruit sponsorship money. To increase the knowledge of competitive club anglers, and to educate clubs on how to successfully recruit new members. To pass on the kind of "respect" and sportsmanship that others mentioned.
A unified voice is the only way for big change. Internet threads can help see different perspectives, but I know that it won't demand change. Anglers would need to vote in representatives and trust that they will do what is best for competitive angling in WA.
I would promote the continued support of clubs but suggesting that you must be a club member in order to vote on these reps. Too many upper level anglers have stopped supporting clubs. I've actually heard "oh thats some club shit" by NWbass anglers looking down there nose at the very entity that gave them a platform to start competing.The flaw of course is time and money. Who has the time, and how would they get compensated for it. It would almost have to be charitable, and you tend to get what you pay for.
I'm sure it'll all just play out, and ultimately will be fine, but if any real change was too happen, you'd need 1 voice backed by all. Not 400 backed by none.
A solution to just about any problem is money right? I'm wondering how much money is being left on the table by anglers. I like freedoms as much as anyone, but if you want a functional model, sometimes you have to curb your belief system to generate sponsorship so your "game" is viable. Its communism. Its socialism, Its a dictatorship...its whatever the F you want to call it, but it would generate dollars in order to fish for money that isn't our own. We have an open, free model. Its Americana at its best, and it ain't working so well as we take our "choices" and spread them thin, eliminating all leverage.
Is Anthony's and the hotels next door at Columbia Point sponsoring NWBASS? If not why not? Would the Crows nest, and Cedars or Ice Harbor Brewery be willing to at Clover Island? Would NWBASS anglers be willing to committ to eating dinner there, or having some beers there in pre-fish, and during tournament weekends. Are you willing to get a room at these hotels? If you got a free appetizer, or free drink, would you go there and spend some money to support those businesses who support NWBASS? Would you be willing to keep ALL receipts and submit them to the tourney director at year end to show value to these businesses?
Is the gas station, golf course restaurant, and Mardon sponsoring potholes tournaments? How about we buy a pitcher of beer there instead of going to walmart for the coors. How about we buy our boat gas and supplies there instead of trailoring 400lbs of fuel across the state. In return, we ask that they support the circuit that brings serious money that is directed, funneled, to their business.
How about standardization? How about we sole source reels, graphs, and trolling motors to leverage motorguide and garmin to support the circuit. How about starting 2018 we limit all bass boats to 19.5ft 200hp boats, and go to dual sourced boat/motor manufacturer (ie Phoenix/Ranger merc/yam) who is willing to greatly reduce costs across the board in conjunction with sponsorship dollars to the top 10 payouts. Those who want to continue to use 21foot boats and 300HP motors simply don't receive any of the added sponsorship payouts, and/or they pay more to enter the tournament. Who needs boat incentive money in that scenario? Name another sport where guys in 15k boats that limit their ability to fish against the RIGHT fish are gambling with 70K boats who can get there. Its crazy. That is why pro sports have Salary Caps. Major league fishing has completely standardized boats, and graphs.How about each angler is limited to 6 rods. If you want more than 6 rods....they have to be loomis, Alpha Angler, or Lamiglas. Those rod makers should support the circuit proportionally.
I see too much "tweaking little changes" in order to appeal. I find making big changes to work better sometimes.
Are some of these ideas viable, I have no idea. Are they communist, socialized, dictatorships, that represent everything that America stands against.... yep. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. Our number of choices are killing our leverage to acquire money that could ultimately be game changing.
Look at the Hospital system. Hospitals are gobbling up every family practice and clinic they can. Then they go to sole source vendors to make their money go farther. Its working for them. Working well.
Or... maybe we realize that at one time, Potholes Reservoir kicked out a bunch of dinks. Lake Washington and the Hanford Reach used to kick out 5lb smallmouth like clockwork. 16lbs at Banks won it. Everything comes and goes, and while tourney fishing is trending down, people are still doing it, and maybe it will come back huge in the next few years for some random reason.
Ben Hanes said:Looking back on this thread, I have seen you play devil's advocate a ton, which has been entertaining, but I haven't see YOU yet clearly depict what you think is going on with the circuits, and how they could improve. I've only heard bits and pieces here and there from you, and a whole lot of arguing LOL! So let's hear it...
-
-
-
One thing I would like someone to explain to me who really knows...
Why are tournament entry fees so high, and option pots such a small percentage of the cost to enter a tournament?
Why cant NWB be a 70 dollar entry, and options be the $250? It seems like since everyone knows that tournament fishing isnt a money maker, then why not make it more about competition with the option to gamble if you want to roll the dice. -
-
Permalink Reply by Ben Hanes on
-
Snake,
That's a reasonable, interesting point, and a reasonable question.
-
-
Permalink Reply by stevens on
-
i'm nobody and no I don't want to join a bass club, But I do think someone should put together an open tourney with a $1000.00-$2000.00 buy in on potholes or lake wa maybe banks...and the best sticks in Washington should show....for me i'm not going to waist my time spending $300.00 maybe to make $1000.00...I would rather just fish for fun(maybe even get a state record :)
-
-
Permalink Reply by Jordan Doucet on
-
Many of you may have noticed the small poll in the corner of your screen and voted. Here are the results for those interested:
Let the analysis begin....
-
-
-
I would say, just by looking at this, that a lot of NWB, ABA guys started fishing Open Tournaments and Club Tournaments, and stopped fishing ABA and NWB....I bet 7 or so years ago this list might have been flip-flopped in that regard. The reason I think that is because NWB was drawing 100-125 boats 8 years ago- ish. "Everyone" was fishing NWB back then practically.
-
-
Permalink Reply by Dustin Chaplin on
-
Jordan- those numbers dont lie. What jumps out to me is the fact that only 103 people answered. Obviously there are more guys that dont frequent this site that will fish tourney this year in some format. But, you can only split 103 guys so far. You are left with too many pies with not enough ingredients. Thats the problem.
-
-
-
Dustin,
That is a symptom I think, I'm not really sure it's the problem. You can say there's too many circuits and tournaments and anglers are being spread thin, but the real bottom line is that they are going to fish whichever circuit/tournament/etc that they believe is best for them....And it's apparent that many of the guys fishing clubs/opens ARE NOT fishing the larger circuits, because the larger circuits are actually capturing a minority of the anglers, so many anglers DO NOT BELIEVE the bigger money circuits are the best for them....It's like the buggy whip analogy Josh Potter made earlier, and kind of what I've been trying to say throughout this thread......But, if you look at the surface of the numbers, I would agree with you.
I guess to paraphrase, if there was only 1 circuit in all of the Northwest, based on the current formats the circuits have, I would still choose to only fish clubs and BASS at this time.
Furthermore, for the guys who have been around a while, it's obvious that 8 years ago, practically everyone in Washington State who bass fished chose NWB. There were a number of circuits around back then too, like ABA, Anglers Choice, BASS, TBF, Clubs, many opens, but TONS of guys STILL CHOSE to fish their favorite circuit: NWB.
-
-
Permalink Reply by P.J. Koshi on
-
There are probably at least 500 people that will participate in some tournament at some point in this state in 2016. This simply isn't enough people when they are spread out over all those assorted tournaments. As I think I've tried to say before I think it's great to see new formats and innovative ideas but adding to the number of tournaments without also subtracting is part of the problem. I know pride and tradition and serving different segments within that pool are important factors but let's be honest consolidation and folding of some might be required for the greater good as things change and evolve. This scenario isn't etched in stone remember. If some tournaments decide it's not a successful venture right now that's not necessarily meaning they are dead and buried for good. Clubs are the same. They go thru ups and downs when it comes to participation. Some fold, some struggle, try to innovate and some thrive. That's just reality.
-
-
-
Juan (Jake) - I'm with you completely on that format. I'd love to see a circuit come around that offered a very low entry with a variety of options that total enough money to attract the big guys, but yet, not alienating those that want the competition and fish against the best with minimal risk for entry. I'd say maybe a $50 entry with maybe $450 worth of options would probably cut it.
ABA would have actually been the closest to making that happen if they wouldn't have reduced their entry ($120) AND limited their options to just 2 totaling $50. They say it's because people view the tournament as "All In", which is an interesting view, as options are by definition OPTIONAL.
Questions like this will be included in the upcoming survey...
-
-
-
Jordan,
Please take no offense, however most polls can be manipulated to serve a purpose. If you look at the options, you marked the main circuit tournaments as "entire circuit". Lets say a team plans on fishing 3 of the 4 NWB qualifiers, would they mark this box or not? I bet some did not mark this box since they will not participate in the "entire circuit". I think your poll should have left off the "entire circuit" for NWB, ABA and BBT. I hope you see my thoughts on this.
Jordan Doucet said:Many of you may have noticed the small poll in the corner of your screen and voted. Here are the results for those interested:
Let the analysis begin....
-
-
-
Jeff,
When I say option pots, I'm thinking more than just a big fish option. You could have big stringer options that pay down based on number of entries. I'd say that the big fish pot would be a lesser option than a big stringer pot that would be geared more towards the "big guys".
For example, let's use a 100 boat field to make it easy:
$50 Entry: $5,000 total in. 80% payback = $4,000 paid out.
- To be generous let's say 1 in 5 payout for entry - 20 teams get paid. You can work the breakdown of payout however you want, but those who cash average $200. Not much, however not much risk either for entry only. This hopefully would attract more club level guys who are just getting started and may not be as concerned about payout as competing with the best around for minimal entry. The entire premise though, is money is won in the options as follows:
Options would be paid back 100%. Here's how I'd break those down:
- $25 big fish pot: Paid out to one single fish place $2,500 if all anglers got in.
- $25 big bass pot: Pays biggest fish in each flight (say 4 flights): $625 per big fish if all anglers got in
- $50 Pays out to Biggest Stringer per flight: $5,000 of all anglers got in, 4 flights: $1,250/flight
- $350 Big Stringer: Pays out 1 in 7 - say the top 1/3 (33*350= $11,550) get in it so it pays 4 places at a breakdown of 40% ($4,620), 30% ($3,465), 20% ($2,310), 10% ($1,155).
Let's just say that the winner got in everything and they won big fish which happens occasionally, they'd leave with:
- $400 for the entry win (or however you want to break it down)
- $2,500 for big fish
- $625 for big fish of the flight
- $1,250 for big stringer of flight
- $4,620 for big stringer main option
Total winnings: $9,395
Plus if the winners had any incentive money, with the lower entry fee, theoretically more anglers are involved so it would qualify. Even those who did entry only could also win that and end up way ahead.
The biggest problem I see with this format however is that the tournament organization/director does not make much when you consider the costs, unless there is sponsorship money or a small one-time angler registration fee to help offset costs.
This all of course is assuming that those club level guys or the guys that get in at the $50 entry want to compete against the best, which may not be the case for a number of club guys.
Thoughts?
Jeff McBroom said:Guys,
NWBASS is a circuit set up to reward the top teams that make the right choices and bring in the biggest 5 fish. Lets do some math:
Lets say we have 75 teams--we will calculate the different prize pools for a $250 entry (NWBASS current entry fee) & lets say a $75 entry.
1. 75 × 250 =$18,750 of which the winning team gets ~15% = $2812.50. The remaining would be split among the next ~19 teams (top heavy of course). That 1st place team might not have gotten "big fish" for their flight.
2. 75 x 75 = $5625 of which if 15% went to first place would only be $843.75.
Seems like if we went to a low entry and big option pot we would be rewarding teams who might have only caught 1 big fish all day and not really rewarding the teams that excelled in catching the 5 biggest fish (the whole purpose of this circuit ). If you want to be rewarded for catching 1 big fish there is another circuit geared towards that.
Jordan Doucet said:Juan (Jake) - I'm with you completely on that format. I'd love to see a circuit come around that offered a very low entry with a variety of options that total enough money to attract the big guys, but yet, not alienating those that want the competition and fish against the best with minimal risk for entry. I'd say maybe a $50 entry with maybe $450 worth of options would probably cut it.
ABA would have actually been the closest to making that happen if they wouldn't have reduced their entry ($120) AND limited their options to just 2 totaling $50. They say it's because people view the tournament as "All In", which is an interesting view, as options are by definition OPTIONAL.
Questions like this will be included in the upcoming survey...
-
Blog Posts
Old Farts Tournament on Potholes
Posted by Tom Melowitz on September 7, 2019 at 2:45pm
New Group Added!
Posted by Eric Urstad on April 3, 2019 at 7:38pm
© 2024 Created by Jordan Doucet.
Powered by
