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Tournament Fishing Participation - How do you decide?
After talking to some friends of mine about tournament fishing in general, the new tournaments coming, legacy tournaments that have been around a long time, and everything in between I want to know a couple things from the people on here:
- What you think about the number of tournaments in general?
- How do you decide which ones to do?
When you stop and think about all the tournaments coming in 2016 for example it is pretty shocking to see how far spread out anglers could become. That list of tournaments in 2016 includes:
- Northwest Bass
- ABA East and West
- The New Big Bass Trail
- TBF Qualifiers
- BASS Qualifiers
- Open Tournaments
- Club Tournaments
Pretty wild when you consider how many tournaments that is and actually put those dates to the calendar and see almost every weekend with multiple events from April through September.
Here's my thoughts:
#1 In my opinion there are a limited number of tournament bass fishermen in the northwest and based on the participation of tournaments this year and in the last couple of years, almost across the board (there are a few exceptions), I would argue that so many tournaments is not good for tournament fishing in general. It appears to me that the market has become diluted already and even more events are coming up. That is not to say that I do not believe in competition. I will be the first person to tell you that when there's more competition, figure out a way to do what everyone else is doing and make it better, but unfortunately I don't see that now or in the future. I see too much of the same stuff, or see new things that just don't appeal to me. Wasn't it alot more fun and didn't it mean a heck of alot more to the anglers personally when they did well, as well as the appeal to sponsors when there were 100+ boats at an event or events in a circuit.
#2 For me, I typically choose a tournament trail based on the schedule, how "fun" the lake is to fish at the given time of year, and my level of confidence that I can get my money back. Alot of my decision making is about potential ROI for me at this point which pretty much rules out all club and qualifier events. I at least want the opportunity to make my money back if I get lucky enough to cash a check over a weekend or at least have a great time trying. So I choose the circuit where I both feel the most confident I can do well, compared with the investment and payback, and the uniqueness or amount of fun I am going to have to justify the expense. Then mix in an open tournament or two where it makes sense and doesn't conflict with prefish of whatever circuit I choose. Oh and then compare that with the family plans and events with the wife and kids.
So I'll end my rambling with a challenge to tournament directors or circuits. Use the resources you have at your disposal, listen to the anglers, work a little harder to separate yourself, think outside of the box and figure out how to stand above everything else. Maybe this is being done now and I'm missing something and if so I apologize, but I can't be the only one feeling this way.
Thoughts?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jake Anderson on
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Don,
You keep comparing bass fishing to this sport and that sport. Im just going to be honest... My brain doesnt follow your comparisons because they are apples to oranges once you dig into the details.
51 weeks per year you can practice on the water for any given tournament. Thats not what I call much of a limitation. The MOST IMPORTANT week where locals have increased ability to take advantage is removed to maintain competitive balance...
Ok.... Name one sport where they do this madness? We cant.
Why cant we? Because there is no other sport where the home team can stack odds in their favor because of unique position or circumstance that isnt directly related to the skills required.
Hockey? Did Gretsky gain 5mph on his slapper because he was able to do forearm curls while the flyers were on the busride to LA?
Baseball? Is long toss going to give your squad an advantage if the royals partake while the mariners are on the redeye?
Football? If the cougs run some skelly while the Cal bears are getting bussed down from Spokane, is that going to stack the odds?
Bass fishing: Don Hogue and Ryan Brown are out marking beds Thurs-Friday while 3/4 of the field are at work?
You think that may help?
Ben,
You definately missed Potters point. Pie = number of anglers. You need Pie to even have any "rules" conversation, just as you need a shit ton of horses if you manufacture buggy whips.
There arent enough horses in the stable, but every angler wants to discuss how many buggy whipps we'll sell with a tweak here and there.
If more money in tournaments is what you want, then you need new anglers. Bringing back the "old guard" is a WASTE of time.
If you dont believe me, then ask all the guys who dont fish tourney's anymore what it would take to get them back. They'll tell what it would take, then they won't show.
So who is the target market for growth? How do you recruit them? How do you help them develope the confidence to compete?
We should also control what we can, so this conversation isn't a waste, but its not really the right one.
McBroom:
I understand Tourney scheduling is tough. That doesnt mean scheduling hasnt been a total joke in select instances. Are you going to sit there and tell me russ had to slate bbt on moses during nixons off limits and on top of ABA? Is that really the argument? -
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Permalink Reply by P.J. Koshi on
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I think that saying because the same top performers are always winning participation is decreasing really speaks to a larger overhanging problem. Yes it can be disheartening to always lose to the same guys but that's what I would go in expecting if I were to lose. I think what needs to be addressed by the circuits is how to make fishing these tournaments more of an experience worth the money, time, and effort regardless of outcome. You can argue that's up to the angler but I disagree. It's the circuits, boat dealers, and organizations that have resources. Whether it be giveaways provided by sponsors, specialists and technicians on hand at events to share knowledge or help with mechanical failures. Those things add value to the overall experience.
Short personal story. Ive fished very few big tournaments. This past year I decided to step up and fish TBF qualifiers. I focused my efforts and did pre practice and practice for 2 of the events. I entered all the pots each time so fees totaled $480 cash to fish the series $300 flat entry. I cant give an exact cost total... but lets be conservative since I am cheap and 1 event was 20 minutes from home fishing the series cost me $800. I got a $250 check at 1 of the events and was fortunate enough to make the 12man state team. Now I get to go fish out in Oregon with costs covered. Not to mention I ordered 2 new graphs at a pretty considerable duscount for making the team. That savings alone more than covers the remaining $550 it cost to fish. And I look at the experience of going to divisionals almost like profit in the form of a life experience that will cost me very little! I know that is not the format of a team money circuit but im just trying to illustrate how its possible to make guys feel positive even if they arent being handed a check each time.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Hanes on
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Don,
Do you think the top 25-30 guys would be willing to pay $1,000 entry fees each tournament, if it meant payouts each tournament would be $20 thousand+ dollars first place each tourney?
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Permalink Reply by Josh Potter on
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Holy smokes! A guy decides to be productive at work for a day or two and a party starts without him even knowing it. I love it....in the last 2 weeks we have had both a really funny (in a fart joke kind of way) thread and a somewhat heated yet substantive debate. This site might steal some time from the silly arguments on the strength and conditioning sites I have been reading lately.
Ben understood EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. A lot of you guys made some great observations and valid arguments. I could take this entire discussion and change all of the fishing terminology to youth football terminology and the narrative would be identical.
I have been active in coaching youth football for the last 5 years. This time of year our league's board is always talking about how to boost enrollment. Last night we had our monthly meeting and the agenda was centered around marketing. Everybody was trying to scheme different ways of boosting our enrollment and much of the discussion was centered around how to get the players from the other competing league to join our league.
Youth football has been in a steady decline all around the country for a number of years. Our part of the country has never had huge youth football involvement to begin with so declining numbers are a big concern for every local organization. Sound familiar....?
I was trying to get our organization to see that they are missing the big picture. We shouldn't be spending any effort at all trying to steal another league's market share. We should be getting kids to play that have never played before. If we do that we don't need that other league's players and the sport would be back on a growth track and fewer kids would be wasting away playing World of Warcraft or whatever it is those nerds are doing.
At some point our organization is going to have to get creative about convincing parents that football is something their kid should try or we are going to die regardless of our market share....I would rather have 50% of 1000 than 100% of 250.
I don't know how that is accomplished in the world of tournament fishing but that's where I would spend my efforts if I was concerned about it.
I seem to be really good at choosing activities to pour myself into just as they are dying.
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Permalink Reply by Don Hogue on
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That looks like a 80-90% payback all going to 1st place?
Ben Hanes said:Don,
Do you think the top 25-30 guys would be willing to pay $1,000 entry fees each tournament, if it meant payouts each tournament would be $20 thousand+ dollars first place each tourney?
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No, it would just be 30 Pro's at 1k each = $30k....50% to 1st would be $15k, but "hypothetically" boat dealers/boat incentives/payouts from lower "semi-pro" and "amateur" divisions would add $5k AT LEAST, so the total payout to first would be over $20k....but it's 50% to first place.
I'm just curious, would the top guys be willing to pay the extra money to actually have truly substantial payouts, or am I just dreaming in la la land?
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Sorry again...My mistake...Say it was 90% payout, 30 Pro's, with kick-in's from the lower leagues and boat and dealer incentives...The math would work out to around $20k for first place each tournament. I could elaborate and do a payout schedule, but I think you guys understand where I'm going.
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Permalink Reply by Dana Steiner on
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Snake,
As I continue to read these post, your wish is near. I will offer my "opinionated" opinion soon. I still have not seen anyone post a real answer to the root cause. I will however point out that we as a fishing community and family are doing a GREAT job of tearing ourselves apart.
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Steiner,
Go easy on me...I know I deserve it and fully expected to get eaten alive. I just feel passionately about whatever has happened and why it's happening.
You have been around longer fishing tournaments than anyone else here discussing this, I am pretty sure. I want to know what you think. I think we all do...Like it was said earlier, you are over there awfully quiet.
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Ben,
Don't plan on busting your balls, I agree with most of what you have said and I wish that things work out so you can come back and hang with the group. I do have a problem with snot nose kids that have green poop dripping from their diapers.
I will take time this weekend to share my thoughts based on my personal experience. Right now, I'm just happy that class acts like Paul Nixon, Ray Whitney, Dave Thomas and many others are not around to witness the disgrace of the sport they worked so hard to build.
By the way, are you calling me old?
Ben Hanes said:Steiner,
Go easy on me...I know I deserve it and fully expected to get eaten alive. I just feel passionately about whatever has happened and why it's happening.
You have been around longer fishing tournaments than anyone else here discussing this, I am pretty sure. I want to know what you think. I think we all do...Like it was said earlier, you are over there awfully quiet.
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Steiner is right. Forum style conversations can be tough on friends who all have the same general passion. That's why I deleted my last post, as this isn't going anywhere.
Couple years ago, Dana, Stiles and I tried to setup a meeting in Moses Lake with a bunch of NWBass anglers. The idea was to help shape the circuit to something that worked for Stiles (businessman), and the anglers who are passionate about the sport. The meeting never worked out due to scheduling, but Stiles was still able to gather opinions and make changes. The end result was a 10-15% gain in participation and contingency money at every event. The year wasn't without issues, but it was a definite improvement.
Maybe as a group, we could have Jordan assemble some type of online questionnaire which we could present to each tournament director. I believe they want the same things we do, participation and less bitching. From there, we can decide who's getting it right by showing up.
Ben, I apologize for my direct approach to your comments about the "Professional" group. I took your approach as an attack on something I feel completely opposite about. I think the majority of the names listed, plus 100 more guys, care deeply about this sport, and don't want to be victimized for their time and effort. The sport will never be perfect, but let's face it, upto 10 times a year, guys are fishing for a $5-20k prize. There's bound to be some tension. Yet not something we haven't overcome in the past.
The online survey might be a lot of work, but I'd be willing help compensate Jordan for this time. Couple ideas we could add to the list:
1.) Friday Prefishing - completely open prefishing
2.) Championship Prizes - Boat versus Cash versus Free Obamacare
3.) Rookie of the Year Awards
4.) .....
Or we could continue to bitch about each other's opinions in a circle, dividing the group that supposed to ultimately decide what tournament fishing should be like in this state.
By the way, I know you guys are reading this... So thanks to Angie, Jeff and Russ.
In the words of the Great Debater, Jake the Snake. Kick Rocks (politely). I have to go build rods.
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I certainly hope nobody is seriously butthurt by any of this. We all have some strong opinions on this and it's all good as far as I'm concerned. Nobody go and get your panties in a bunch! I'll just try and stick with the heart of the question(s): *Disclaimer - My opinions, while they make perfect sense to me, tend not to be the "norm" #off limits
What you think about the number of tournaments in general?
I think there are too many for me to fish them all. I don't fault anybody for trying to set up a tournament for whatever reason they want. Relative to the rest of the bass fishing world we have few offerings and are already limited by the state on how many events there are. I don't really think there are too many tournaments overall, just too few tournament anglers to make the economics of it work for most. If ABA, NW Bass and BBT were all drawing 100+ teams then we would be talking about maybe we need more tournaments. BBT probably feels justified for scheduling more dates as the numbers seem to indicate they are doing something right. While their format is different, it obviously appeals to many who see it as more fair and as a way to even the playing field some - much like the arguments for off limits. (yes Snake that is ironic).How do you decide which ones to do?
Assuming my tournament partner wants to do it and I don't have something I can't get out of in the way...- Is the payoff worth the cost? By cost, I'm including time away from home, travel costs, tackle costs, boat gas, entry fees, membership fees, and cost in intellectual property that may impact the next tournament that has a better payoff.
- Is it one I kinda have to do in order to fish the Championship. The Championships typically have the biggest payouts, so I'll endure a tournament or two in order to qualify. I'll invest more energy/time/money into the bigger money payout events. Really, I approach those all-together differently.
- Will I have the time/opportunity to prepare for it in the way I feel I need to? This is where off limits comes into play. If I won't have the time to prepare how I like to then I'll have to start preparing a year ahead of time.
- Is the location one that I'm intrigued with? Is there a chance to catch some really big bass? Is a 25lb bag possible?
- Am I generally in favor with how the tournament is handled, run. Is there some thought and planning being done on their end or do I get the sense that things are kinda thrown together and the rules/payout structure and expectations of the anglers have been designed to fit the lowest common denominator.
- Do I think it will be a fun, memory-making experience?
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